RADIO CALL / RADIO INTERVIEW — TAPE #757
Q: Mark Russell Bell
S: “Coast to Coast AM” call screeners
C: unidentified caller
G: George Noory, host of “Coast to Coast AM”
N: Norman Mikeal Berketa, host of “NMB Live” Internet show
T: taped announcer, “NMB LIVE”
S: (female with Swedish accent) “Coast to Coast AM.” What is your name, please?
Q: My name is Mark.
S: Will you spell your name please?
Q: M — A — R — K.
S: M — A — I —
Q: No. R as in Richard.
S: Your name is Richard?
Q: No. M as in Mark. A — R — K.
S: Mark. Where are you calling from, Mark?
Q: From L.A.
Q: Los Angeles.
S: Good. California.
Q: That’s right.
S: And what is your question, Mark?
Q: Yes, I wanted to ask about the androids that the Pleiadians have — that I read about in the book about Eduard Meier.
S: That’s good — was a good question. Please Mark, when was the last time that you called us?
Q: It’s been a few months.
S: Two months?
Q: Yeah, it’s been a while.
S: Good. Okay. Okay, please keep listening (to) the show, okay? And when you — when you hear that West is called —
S: — you will be up. Okay?
Q: Thank you so much.
S: Very good. And make sure that your radio is off when you will be on A, okay?
Q: It’s off.
(TRANSCRIBER’S NOTE: THERE IS A BRIEF PAUSE BEFORE THE BROADCAST BEGINS TO BE HEARD ON MY LINE.)
C: . . . Also, I would like to give my best of luck to Art and he’s a lucky man to have his wife stand by him. We all wish him well.
G: Very good. Thank you.
C: Thank you.
G: Appreciate that. Did they — you talked a little bit about —
(TRANSCRIBER’S NOTE: AT THIS A FAMILIAR MALE VOICE INTERRUPTED THE BROADCAST. ON A LATER CALL I LEARNED THIS WAS WILL HILLIARD.)
S: Let me have your first name again.
Q: It’s Mark.
S: Mark, where are you calling from?
Q: Los Angeles.
S: Thank you. We’re not taking your call. (line disconnected)
(TRANSCRIBER’S NOTE: I SENT THE FOLLOWING EMAIL TO GEORGE NOORY LATER IN THE HOUR.)
In the book LIGHT YEARS by Gary Kinder, Billy Meier said that on thePleiadians’ world, “the work is done by robots and androids.”
Androids?! The Pleiadians don’t sound very spiritually advanced to me.
Mark in Los Angeles
P.S. I am no longer allowed to call in as I was screened again tonightso I hope you will ask Michael Horn my observation as I would like tohear his response. I also wanted to advise him to listen to theinterview later as apparently he is being helped in his research. Iheard at least 35 “NO” EVPS during the first two hours of the interview.
N: Hi, is this Mark?
Q: Yes, it is.
N: Hi, Mark. It’s Norm. How are you doing?
Q: Very good.
N: Excellent. Are you all set? (“AA”)
Q: I’m all set.
N: Okay. Got a nice comfy chair?
N: (small laugh) Excellent. Okay, I’ll put you into the E-Green Room, as I call it.
N: And — (“SS”)
Q: I can hear the beginning of the show?
N: Yeah, you’re going to hear everything and basically I’m going to do sort of —
Q: You sort of wait a while so people can log on?
N: I’m going to do like a little intro or whatever and then I’ll bring up a bit of music and then I’ll bring the music down. And basically I’m going to read your bio.
Q: Oh okay.
N: And then I’m going to introduce you.
Q: Very good. I sent out thousands of Email, by the way.
N: Well good for you. (“OKAY”) Good for you. Yeah, I’ve actually gotten I think — there’s probably a bunch of people on your Email list most likely that are also sort of in the same vein —
Q: Yeah. Exactly.
N: So that’s cool. That’s excellent.
N: Yeah. Did you hear the news about Art? I guess you did, eh?
Q: Oh yeah. I was listening last week.
N: Yeah. Well I hope he gets better. That’s some affliction he’s got.
Q: Well — yeah. (“I HAVE”) I mean who — who really knows (“YOU KNOW”) what — what’s going on?
N: Yeah. (laughs)
Q: With that show. I mean you know. I mean they screened me the last two times I tried — I called (“O”) so (“YEAH”) I’m on their screen list.
Q: It’s a long story. I mean they know who I am.
N: Yeah. (laughs)
Q: Once (“I[T]”), you know, his wife invited me to be on the show but she ended up withdrawing the invitation. It’s a long story.
N: Oh. Okay, well we don’t need to get into that.
Q: Exactly. (“BB”)
Q: But you never know. (“I MEAN A” “YOU KNOW”) I mean that’s not something I really want to get into but —
Q: — the show is quite interesting —
N: Yeah. (“FROM A”)
Q: — from several different viewpoints, though.
N: Yeah. Oh well. We’ll —
N: — we’ll have fun tonight.
N: Alright. So (“OK[AY]”) here you go. Okay.
N: And, listen, if I cut you off — because it rarely happens — but if it does, I will phone you right back.
Q: Oh good. Okay.
Q: Thank you.
(TRANSCRIBER’S NOTE: I RECORDED THE OPENING OF THE SHOW ON THE SLOW SPEED AND IT WASN’T LOUD ENOUGH TO HEAR ON THE TAPE. THE NAME OF THE SHOW WAS ANNOUNCED, FOLLOWED BY SOME CLIPS FROM PREVIOUS INTERVIEWS.)
T: Hot topics, fascinating guests . . . totally interactive radio, live from Ottawa, Canada, the nation’s capital, this is “I-Cast,” the intelligent radio broadcast on NMB Live . . . intelligent radio is now on the air. Here is your host, Norman Mikeal Berketta.
N: Well good evening and welcome to the October 27th edition of “I-Cast,” the intelligent radio broadcast here on “NMB Live.” Well I sure hope that you’re all doing well and thank you for joining us tonight. It’s getting cool . . . Halloween is just around the corner. And everybody soon will be dressing the kids, hitting the street, trick or treating and I’m sure in light of all the recent events will be going through every piece of candy with a microscope before allowing the kids to touch it. And that’s if you even let them out this year. And as a parent of two children, I would understand if you kept them at home this Halloween. If you’re listening to the show for the very first time tonight, allow me to say that we are pretty varied when it comes to content, special guests on the program. We’ve discussed everything from ’70s TV to acting in film to the paranormal, which brings me to tonight’s program. My special guest this evening is Mark Russell Bell. He is the author of two books that I’m aware of, Testament and New Testament. And we’ll be talking with Mark about things that go screech in the night: ghosts, spirits, entities, shadows, sounds, voices, talking poltergeists. Well I’ll tell you, you are in for a real treat tonight, folks. Mark will be joining us by phone from Los Angeles, California in just a moment so don’t you dare go anywhere. We’ll be back in the wink of an eye.
(TRANSCRIBER’S NOTE: THERE WAS A PAUSE HERE FOR A COUPLE MINUTES.)
N: Mark Russell Bell was born Mark Gordon Russell on August 8, 1956 as the identical twin of his brother Michael in Culver City, California, not far from MGM Studios. Now even as a small child, Mark experienced inexplicable occurrences that contributed to his interest in the ‘paranormal.’ He is a graduate of the USC cinema department and has worked as staff writer in the publicity department of Paramount Pictures. He contributed to publicity campaigns for more than 100 films, including “Ghost,” several “Star Trek” movies, “Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade,” and “Forrest Gump.” While working for Paramount, Mark researched ‘talking poltergeists’ throughout history, including the Bell Witch (of) 19th Century Tennessee, for an unpublished book. After he interviewed a contemporary Oklahoma family with Bell ancestry experiencing a ‘talking poltergeist,’ the range of his experiences enabled him to understand the parallels between the account of the Angelic Force called ‘Michael’ by the Oklahoma family with what has been recorded about the Angel Who spoke to Moses in the Mount, was mentioned as an ‘angelic(al) spirit’ by Nostradamus, used Edgar Cayce as a channel, was referred to as ‘The Mahatmas’ by The Secret Doctrine author Madame Blavatsky, communicated via the Ouija Board to inspire the Messages From Michael books, and was glimpsed in a near death experience by Dr. George Ritchie as described in his book Return From Tomorrow. The Bell synchronicity in his life culminated when he found physical proof that he had lived a previous life as Bel-Marduk, also known as Egypt’s Amun-Ra or Edgar Cayce’s Ra-Ta, which means ‘Sun-Earth,’ the priest. Zecharia Sitchin wrote in The Wars of Gods and Men that clay tablets found in the ruins of Ashur involving Bel-Marduk were first translated in 1921 by Heinrich Zimmern, who interpreted the text as (the word “no” can be heard only on archive tape here) dealing with the death and resurrection of a god and thus an earlier Christ tale. Welcome to the program, Mark.
Q: Good evening.
N: So how are you doing tonight?
Q: I’m doing very well. I was just thinking as you were reading that, (“THAT IT”) it sounds over the top and —
N: (laughs) Oh my gosh. I’m sorry.
Q: And you know — and I’m aware of that but that’s just the way it is.
Q: So —
N: That it comes across over the top, you mean?
Q: Well I guess so. I mean I’ve had so many varied responses (“O[F]”) — you know, via Email from people and (“YEAH”) speaking to them in person. I mean I’ve had just about every response conceivable. In fact, I’ve interviewed a number of other experiencers, as we might call them, and other people who apparently are reincarnations of other famous people.
Q: And a (“ONE”) repetitive indication of this is that they — some of them look exactly like the person — the famous person. Because, you know, you’re always hearing, “Well I’m the reincarnation of so-and-so” and it was somebody famous. And obviously there are some mediums and psychics who tell people what they want to hear. And there are interesting tidbits such as the fact that there were like a whole dynasty of different Cleopatras throughout that time. (“BUT” “IT’S INDI”) It’s interesting when you interview somebody who looks exactly like somebody that they talk about and then — (“YY DD”) you don’t know if they’re really aware of the — that they are the reincarnation. And some — sometimes I discuss it with them and other times I haven’t (the word “her” can be heard only on archive tape here) even mentioned it to them.
Q: But I guess we should start really at the beginning around the time I was born.
N*: Yeah —
N: I’d li(ke) — yes, I want to — I’d like to know about that because I’m interested in what — in what you experienced as a young child so yeah, take it away. Take it away.
Q: Okay. Well, as you said in the bio, I did have some (“UU”) unusual experiences very young. When I was five or six, I heard a disembodied voice calling my name one morning. I awoke and I heard something just calling “Mark.” It was sort of a whispery voice —
Q: — ba(sed) — based on my recollection so — my twin brother was sleeping in his bed. I went to my mom’s room and she was asleep. (“AND SO I”) I kept looking throughout our apartment for the source of the voice. (“I”) First, I was — thought, “Oh it (“MI”) must be some friend from school playing a trick on me” even though I don’t re(ally) — I didn’t really have any particular friend then that was that close who would do something that unusual.
N*: Right. Right.
Q: But I finally — I never did find any indication — (“I”) just put it out of my mind at that time.
N: And it was just — just calling your name?
Q: Yes. And in fact that’s something that (“I”) — because I’ve been interviewing a lot of other people with similar experiences and that’s something that I keep — it keeps coming up. You hear that the same experience —
Q: — of hearing someone. And, of course, horror movies have had this same thing as rather a cliche. I remember the movie “Suspiria” for one.
N: Oh my gosh, “Suspiria.”
N: I ha(ve) — you know, I’ve — (“I”) I’ve actually seen that movie. (small laugh)
Q: Right. Well that’s — it was very horrorific. I mean I don’t go to movies anymore, personally.
Q: But two years after that event, there — I had a vaccine in school. And at the time I really — it was one of the first vaccine experiences that I recall. And I really — I don’t remember being that upset at the time but I went back to my desk in my classroom. And apparently I fainted or passed out. And when I regained consciousness I had — well first of all, (“I MEAN IT”) it was the first time I’ve ever — ever — I ever fainted. And, you know, you’re on your back. You don’t know where you are. You hear — at first you hear sort of a murmur of voices. (“AND I”) I remember thinking, (“AA”) “The aliens have come back,” which (or “WHICH” or “WITCH”) was a very bizarre thought because aliens (“IN” “NO”) back in 1964 really weren’t as prominent as they are today.
N*: (second time) Right.
Q: I might have seen them in (“LIKE”) one of the old “Superman” TV episodes but that’s about all I can remember. So my next very unusual experience — (“AN”) what I should also add, after that experience, I remember I didn’t have anything happen to me that I remember from a tetanus shot. Because there was one day on the playground where I stepped on a nail that I remember being — it was (“YOU KNOW”) (instead of “you know” only “no” is audible only on archive tape here) a huge nail right into my — the bottom of my foot.
Q: I mean they actually had to carry me in (“YOU KNOW”) to the nurse’s office. And so I didn’t have — I don’t remember having any problem (“WITH”) with the tetanus shot. But then when I was about thirteen, the occult was sort of becoming in vogue and I remember that there was (“AA”) — I don’t remember if it was Look or Life but it was one of those big glossy magazines and they had this (“BIG”) article about the supernatural.
Q: So it inspired me basically to have a seance. So I got out a(n) Ouija Board and (“YOU KNOW”) up to then the Ouija Board had never worked for me — at least, not that I was aware of.
N*: Right. (“DU”) (“AND I”)
Q: You know, I had my glow-in-the-dark skull from Disneyland and a candle. And my twin brother was the one who was going to participate, as I was going to give him the seance.
Q: Well, anyway, I — it was no longer than when I said, “I call upon the spirits of the dead,” when all of a sudden there was this huge clamor and it was like a small tornado was coming upon the ceiling. And, afterwards, we found out that parts of the neighbors’ roofs — (“IN”) the building next to ours had come off and collapsed onto our apartment, which is very unusual for Pasadena —
Q: — California. And — so that was the (or “THAT WAS THE”) — that was the end of my seance career.
Q: I mean I — that was the end of that.
Q: So I was a very sensitive child and (“AA”) my parents had gone through a divorce. So I would escape into movies, TV, comic books. After that time when I fainted, I sort of had this odd panic disorder. I was — (“CAUSE I WW”) I was so worried that I would pass out that I would begin hyperventilating and I would end up passing out. Like I remember when once a friend hit his head when I was in the fifth grade and I (“STARTED”) — the blood started trickling out and I remember that really upset me. And my brother’s sort of squeamish too. He’s had a — (“HE”) he’s passed out a number of times too, which will come into play later on when I tell you about the Bell Witch case because the protagonist (“O[F]”) of that case, Betsy Bell, also apparently had some kind of problems (“WHERE”) with asthma and with fainting.
Q: So that’s sort of a strange parallel there.
N*: Yeah. Yeah. (“AA”*)
Q: So, anyway, when I was in high school I found that I had an innate writing ability. I remem(ber) (“BO”) once going to a journalism day news writing contest at Pasadena City College and (“I”) I won. And I really hadn’t been that much into journalism unlike my brother who was editor of the school newspaper.
Q: And, anyway, I won first place for that and then also there were like (“THE”) these national awards put out by the Quill and Scroll and our newspaper ended up submitting like — I think my brother submitted like ten of h(is) — his articles — (“AND”) a few other sports articles and I was allowed to submit one, which was a movie review of “The Exorcist,” and that actually ended up winning me a national writing award.
Q: And, in fact, at the time I hadn’t even yet seen the movie. I — it was just a very factual accounting of the stars and the credits and what the film was about. And I guess (“THEY”) they felt that since I hadn’t — I didn’t give my own opinion—I was just giving the information—that they liked that and that’s why they decided to give me the award.
Q: So I guess even back then I was beginning to see signs that movies really are more hype than reality.
N*: Yeah. Yeah.
Q: So I ended up going to USC cinema and for — I (“YOU”) — I heard a number of experiences from other people. And for me I must say it was in many ways (“AA”) very disconcerting experience for me. I didn’t — I had some bad experiences with some of the faculty members. I guess it started in my first Super 8 class where we had to do like five or six movies. And I made the mistake of starring my brother in one of them. So and I remember the — the professor said, “Well why — you’re supposed to do the photography yourself.” And I said, “Oh well I did. I did. (“IT” “BUT”) This is my twin brother.” And I don’t think they believed me. I mean at the time I thought they believed me.
N: (small laugh) Right.
Q: But I ended up getting like a C in the class. (“AND I”) I guess they didn’t believe me. And I had some other problems with them too because one of the professors had told me to wait a year before going on to the next level. Well I was on scholarship and I didn’t really have the money. (“SO I”) I thought to myself, “Well I’ll go ahead and try to get in to the 16 mm. class and if I don’t, fine; (“BUT IF I”) if I can, great — I won’t have to pay for it out of my own pocket.”
N*: Right. (“WW”)
Q: This caused a problem later on because I never missed any time, I (“YOU KNOW”) did all — (“I DID”) a great student film. My partner did a good film too. And there were people in the class (“WHO WERE LIKE”) — the sons of famous directors and what-have-you and who missed class and handed in shlocky films with jump cuts and things. (“AND”) For some reason, (“I”) they did very well and I ended up getting a D in the course —
Q: — which was devastating. (“I MEAN AT”) At that time all I cared about was getting As and doing well and it really opened up my eyes to the world. I went to the Career Development Center (I meant counseling office) — I was going to make a big deal out of this because there was no criteria (“GO”) for what they had done (“YOU KNOW”) — done to me.
N*: Yeah. Yeah.
Q: And I found out that the counselor there was pretty friendly with the staff and (“I[T]”) it just — she wasn’t really — I got the feeling that she wasn’t there for me, she was there for them.
Q: So, of course, (“NN”) nothing really happened. (“N”) I ended up graduating — (“DOING”) doing well (“YEAH”) in other — wise than that. But it really opened up my eyes to the industry because one of the professors told me, “Well we had told you to wait before going to the next level.” So I was actually being penalized because I hadn’t waited, which was a good introduction to the Hollywood — the way Hollywood does things.
Q: I mean they reward people for reasons other than craft or talent. It’s really (“MORE” [telephone call tape]/”WAR” [archive tape]) ‘what can you do for me? And is this somebody who probably can do something for me?’
Q: So that was my introduction to Hollywood. And then I became a (“AA”) — a story analyst for Marty Ingels. And then — there really were not that many opportunities, I was finding. I made the rounds. (“I HAD”) I went through the experiences that I think everyone does (“LOOK”[ARCHIVE TAPE]/”WW WHERE”) — doing some work on spec for someone and not having it pay off; and going to meetings at one of the networks and having somebody tell me, “Well I want — I do want to hire the best person but” — which is basically telling you, “I don’t want to hire the best person for the job. I don’t want someone who will outshine me.” So, anyway, I finally got a job as Mickey Rooney’s assistant working in the office of his agent Ruth Webb —
Q: — which led me basically to become — I soon became a talent agent. And the agency specialized at that time in the older stars such as Mickey. And other clients included Gene Barry, John Carradine — I remember booking him in the movie “Peggy Sue Got Married” — Yvonne De Carlo, Julie Newmar, Martha Raye, Mamie Van Doren —
Q: — Abe Vigoda, Alan Young — who was in “Mr. Ed.” And —
N: A lot of great stars.
Q: Yeah and also people who aren’t so recognizable like — one of them was this actor who was in the movie “Thoroughly Modern Millie.” And at the (“TT”) — his only line I think in the whole movie was, “Yeah yeah yeah.” And that — (“CAME”) that became sort of important later on.
Q: But, anyway, I got very disenchanted after a while. I really (“WELL YOU KNOW”) was submitting my — I really wanted it to be the in-roads to getting — becoming a screenwriter. And there were times when I had written screenplays for Mickey Rooney when (“THE”) all the money was in place. The green light was there. I was going to get big bucks. Roger Corman was going to produce one and John Dark in Scotland was going to produce another one. (“BUT” “AS”) As you know how things do happen.
Q: Even if a movie is meant to be, sometimes it’s not meant to be.
N*: Yeah. Yeah. (or “YEAH”**)
Q: So after that I left — and when I left the agency I (“BEGAN WW”) went to work for a public relations firm (“WHICH” or “WITCH”) was my introduction to public relations and publicity. And that was interesting.
N*: (small laugh)
Q: I mean let’s just say that the series “Absolutely Fabulous” was subtle in comparison to what I experienced.
Q: But I had the — I was doing — as a favor I did some press kits for my brother who was working at Paramount Pictures. He was the director of publicity and they had problems with the movie “The Untouchables” where they had hired two different writers and didn’t get the results they wanted. So I basically had to write something for free. And they loved what I did so after a few more assignments they invited me to become the staff writer. So (“HOLLYWOOD”) it was Hollywood nepotism.
N*: (small laugh)
Q: And the only people who ever complained about that were other people who — I remember like a famous producer’s son, Martin Bregman’s son once said, “Gosh, that’s nepotism.” You know, and look who’s talking.
N*: (small laugh)
Q: But I worked on a number of films with paranormal themes, such as “The Addams Family,” “The Butcher’s Wife,” “Coneheads,” “Dead Again,” “Fire In the Sky” — a very embarrassing adaptation of the book, some “Friday the 13th” movies. In fact, I once (“WEN”) visited — (“HAD”) went to Vancouver and visited the set of one of those movies. So somewhere in the photo department of Paramount Pictures is a picture of me with Jason, which I never did get a copy of that photo. (“BUT I”) It was a — it was a (“AA”) fun experience.
Q: I did think Vancouver was lovely. “Pet Sematary,” “Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade,” “Indian In The Cupboard,” “Scrooged.”
Q: Let’s see what else? Well “We’re No Angels.” I have an interview with Neil Jordan (“IN”) in the Testament portion of the book, which — what I did is after interviewing this family and finding spirit messages or EVP, I went back to some of my old tapes to see if — (“YOU KNOW”) what I could find and sure enough, there were all kinds of interesting things in that tape. In fact, for that movie “We’re No Angels,” we discussed a lot of very — themes we (or “WE”) — I — I’ve (“B[EE]N”) working with ever since. I also (or “ALSO”) worked on reissues (“OF”) — movies such as “1900” and “The Ten Commandments.” So (“No” can be heard here on archive tape instead of “So”) — but also working on staff, I really did have an introduction to the corporate system and all the various disguises that come with the goal of making money because really that’s the only — (“REALLY”) the real goal.
Q: And, of course, working at Paramount — I don’t think (“E[VE]RY”) anyone’s ever really written about the Mafia connections in Hollywood but, boy, there’s a lot there. Because the goals of the mob are precisely the same as they are for any corporation. Or any organization, for that matter, that (“YOU KNOW”) forgets that companies and countries and militaries really are just names on paper with the goal of allowing the individuals in the top positions of wealth and power—or at least what they think is power and prestige—to keep themselves there. So as a staff writer, I really learned that movies really are more hype than reality.
Q: And a lot of more creativity went into the publicity for some of those films than the films themselves. So —
N*: And ju(st) — and —
N: . . . just as a side note, I think that’s even becoming more and more apparent to just the general public now with all the movies that are coming out.
Q: Right. I mean if you really think about the moviegoing experience, you hear about it in advance and you build up your expectations, (“AND YOU”) even hear about what the story is and the actors — (“AND THE” “YOU KNOW”) the stars. It’s really (“IT’S”) seeing the movie’s always a letdown for some reason.
Q: And I, myself, since I stopped going to movies and watching television, I really find a higher quality of life. (“THERE’S O”) I don’t have all those uncomfortable ideas and horrors and crimes constantly (“YOU KNOW”) making you into some kind of emotional zombie.
Q: I mean there really — there really are mindgames and mind control at work with television and movies that people may not even be aware of. I mean peop(le) — some people (“AA”) have a consciousness level that really isn’t much different than just imitating movies and TV shows and they’re not even aware of it. So, anyway, I was living in Echo Park, which is not far from Paramount. (“IT’S” “RIGHT A”) I was living right across from Echo Park Lake, which has the Angelus Temple and an Episcopal Center right there.
(“SO” [telephone call tape]/”GO” [archive tape] “A”)
Q: Amy Semple MacPherson, of course, was the founder of the Angelus Temple. I was living on Clinton Street at the time and the name turned out to be rather prophetic because that was before Clinton was elected.
Q: So I was having many different paranormal experiences and now I can look back. And I was just ignoring them because I didn’t understand them. There was only one other time that I had the voice phenomena. And that was a night while I was working at Paramount. And I was — I was (or “I WAS”) — I was in bed, about ready to go to sleep, drifting off to sleep when all of a sudden I heard a very (“PP”) prominent voice saying, “FATHER I HAVE WAITED SO LONG.” And my reaction was, “What was that!? Oh my God, what was — what on Earth was that?!” But what do you do (“AFTER”) after something like that happens to you? (“THEY”) What can you do?
Q: You can’t tell anyone. You just sort of — (“WHY”) you just sort of put it out of your mind.
Q: Well I had done some research on screenplays of historical people. One of them was the protagonist of the last formal trial for witchcraft in France. And the other one was I guess (“WHAT YOU”) you would call her a famous freak or a famous — I don’t know what you would call her, basically. (“I”) She seemed to be a hybrid of a bigfoot and a Mexican peasant woman. And she became a — (“AA”) — a big celebrity throughout the world in the time of P.T. Barnum.
N: Okay. Okay.
Q: So, anyway, during this time I knew that (“THIS”) the first one, Catherine, had experienced (“THE”) a rapture of Christ. And I had one. And — so I at the time when I — after I (“HAD”) experienced this rapture, I — it was such a — an astonishing experience that I immediately went down to my computer and typed up my recollections of it even as it was fading from my mind. It was more than a dream. But I was (“I WAS SOON”) forgetting the details after experiencing it. So I wrote down as much as I could. And then I had another similar experience (a) period after that. And I had at least one alien nightmare, I might add. But I was — ever since I was a child I was interested in the unexplained. And after I had finished the Julia Pastrana . . . (change of tape side) . . . (screenplay) there was — it did hit some of the news when (“THEY’D”) they were announced that Richard Gere was going to star in a movie version of it. And, of course, apparently after I had submitted my script all over town, coincidentally or not, all of a sudden was another script with the same subject and I was livid. I had my attorney at the time—his name was Jonathan Handel—contact Richard Gere’s agent and the producer involved and I remember he told me that Richard’s agent (I meant the screenwriter’s agent) had told him that, “Oh no, my writer didn’t plagiarize anyone’s script. She was assigned to it by the producer.” And I said, “Aha.” (small laugh) (“YOU KNOW”) Anyway, it wasn’t a producer who I’d submitted the script to but, knowing something about the way story analysts work — I mean I still to this day wonder exactly what happened there.
Q: In fact, the producer I’d worked with (“ON”) on a film at Paramount but I didn’t know it at the time that he was producing this project. So one time I was discussing the Bell Witch — I basically was looking for another unexplained story to dramatize and I found the Bell Witch — a book about the Bell Witch. And there were things happening. I remember once I was discussing the project with my friend Michelle nearby Paramount and there was a restaurant — there was a power failure at the restaurant. There were all kinds — now that I think back, there were always weird things happening. For example, I remember once I was doing an interview with David Zucker. And at the time I was — I’d had a problem with a tape recorder so I said, “Well (“I’M GONNA”) I’m going to take two tape recorders — (“AND AND”) tape it just as a backup.” Well the tape recorder was doing bizarre things during the interview. So I — anyway I — (“I” “WET”) I gave up that whole plan of having two tape recorders because I mean it was just bizarre that the tape — I mean I knew the battery was fine and I knew the tape was fine but, anyway, to this day I don’t know (“WHAT”) what was going on. And then on the movie “The Butcher’s Wife,” I interviewed the psychic — one of the psychic consultants on the film. And she told me — I didn’t know if she was legitimate or not and, of course, now I think (“SHE D[OES]”) she was — she definitely is. I’ve seen her once since then. But she told me that someone named Michael was going to get my project done. And I thought at the time, “Well there’s Michael Eisner. There’s — (“MY”) my brother Michael might give it to somebody and — (“LL”) it sounded pretty convincing that somebody named Michael would get my project done. I wasn’t quite sure what project she meant. But then I was working on the movie “Clueless.” At the time — after a while, I went from being a staff person to being a consultant and basically working at home and working on the press kits and what-have-you. So I would turn them in on disks. And for the movie “Clueless” when I went in to the department to take the file from the disk to the computer, it wouldn’t work. It said — it had a strange message came on the computer screen. So I thought, “Oh gosh, now I’ll have to go to Kinko’s (“N”) and rety(p)e it.” (“WELL”) Nothing I did (“WW”) would work. (“NO MATTER” “I MEAN”) Different disks — you name it. Nothing would work. So I ended up retyping it into the computer in the department — in the photo department at Paramount. And it was sort of a waste of time anyway because I knew that the producer Scott Rudin (“DID”), you know, liked his own bullshitty press kits anyway. So (“YOU KNOW”) but I did have a duty to turn this in. Well, anyway, after typing it into the computer and taking a disk to move it from that computer to the director of publicity’s computer, the same thing happened. So, anyway, it was like a com (or “COM”) — a cosmic sign that somebody was ‘clueless.’ So (on archive tape ‘so’ has been replaced by ‘no’ here) — and little other things happening too. Like I remember watching a poltergeist TV movie and seeing a strange face appear (“YOU KNOW”) in the movie itself like — walk towards the screen and then recede. And I thought, “Well the producers are doing that to get attention. They’ve done something. That’s (“REALLY”) really an interesting special effect. They’re just doing that (“YOU KNOW”) as some kind of joke. Or maybe it was just some kind of strange interference.” Anyway, I — I kept that tape for a while too (“A I”) it was just one of those little things that happened at the time. And there was al(so) — I remember also seeing an “Unsolved Mysteries,” which (or “WHICH” or “WITCH”) — where there was this unseen persecutor that was leaving notes (“FOR THIS”) — this man and this woman. I mean I can’t remember it very well now but I remember at one point the woman even lo(st) — lost consciousness. And they had cameras everywhere. And somehow the unseen intruder was able to leave a note (“EVEN WW”) even while the cameras were running. And I thought, “Oh well that’s easy. That’s the ‘poltergeist,’ of course. Why don’t they — (“NN”) don’t they realize that? It’s so obvious.” Well also then I had — a year (before my trip to Oklahoma) — in 1994 I had burning bushes outside my condo. This was around July.
Q: So I thought it was probably due to some kind of pyromaniac around the fourth of July. But in both instances (“I”) when I saw the fires, I looked around and the second time I’d been almost waiting for it to happen again. And I ran down immediately and I didn’t — still didn’t see anyone. So that was also sort of a strange sign. Of course, working at Paramount too you have the Paramount mountain logo. (“SO”) I was having these sort of religious symbols in my life and I didn’t even — I wasn’t even aware of it. (“SO” [telephone call tape]/”NO” [archive tape]) I finished my nonfiction historical book about talking poltergeists throughout history. Just to give you a few other cases, there was — other famous cases include the John Mumpesson case in England, 1661. There was the William Morse case in Newburyport, Massachusetts in 1679. In the late 17th Century there was also a case in Italy. In Pavia where the woman heard a speaking voice and her clothes were even once removed on St. Michaelmas Day. Also, in Iceland in the 18th Century and Scotland — there’s a book by Andrew Lang. I think it — (“IT’S CALLED”) called The Book of Dreams and Ghosts but it had some other talking poltergeist stories (accounts) in that. So I studied everything I could find on the Bell Witch because it was just one of those things that was so bizarre that it just had to be real. (“OF COURSE”) This is the most documented and best documented case in history but that really isn’t saying a lot because you still don’t really get a very good idea of what was going on. Well I think I do after having some of my experiences.
Q: But you don’t really get any good answers as to what exactly was going on. For example, they say that the haunting presence killed John Bell who was (“YOU KNOW”) the father of the family. Now oral tradition in Mississippi, which is a different state—it was in Tennessee that this occurred—but in the Journal of American Folk-Lore it said (“TH”) the oral tradition has it that John had shot an overseer to death. And that might have had something to do with it but whatever the true story is will never really be known for sure. But I can say that a lot of the things the family described and have left affidavits concerning have been experienced by another family living — currently living in the United States (“IN”) in Oklahoma.
Q: And I went to interview them and a lot of the things that I had read about in the Bell Witch case, they had experienced variations of — (“OR”) similar circumstances and I have those interviews in the book. Have you read any of that yet by any chance?
N*: I have —
N: I absolutely have as a matter of fact. I’ve tried to read as much as I possibly can and I’m — and I — I — I will finish it. I haven’t finished it yet. (“UM-HUH”)
Q: Well what — do you have any — (“WHA”) what did you think about the family?
N: Well it’s — it — it was interesting to me because one of the things that — that struck me right off the bat was, as I was reading, (“IN”) in all the brackets where the — where the spirit voices were — I guess these are voices that you rec(ognized) — that you heard after, when you reviewed the tapes. The EVP?
Q: That’s correct. I put those in the parentheses.
N: Yeah. One of the things that fascinates me (“AS AA”) as I’m reading it, it’s — it’s almost as if there’s a — (“AA”) a — a bit of a taunting attitude that — that he has because it’s like he’s — he will say words and phrases just before someone will say them.
Q: Exactly. And another — what also you don’t get from reading in the book is that each one of these EVPs is a different voice in many cases. I mean there are some repetitive voices. (“BUT”) They’re different voices —
Q: — and that’s one thing that you tend to overlook. (“BUT”) You’ve read about some of their experiences, I presume.
N: I’m sorry?
Q: Did you read some of their experiences —
Q: — with the Entity?
N: Yes. Yes. (“AND”)
Q: Which one do you — (“DID YOU”) haven’t — which one do you remember or —
N: Well there’s, of course, well the whole thing started I guess with the stones being thrown. And then there was money being stolen from them. And, of course, the — the — the eggs — and — and — and —
N: — things flying through the air, (“OF”) you know, and of course the frig door not being open but somehow the eggs would — would manage to hit somebody.
N: Al(so) —
Q: So — so the(se) — yeah, these are pretty much ‘parlor tricks’ but now there are people in that community who have had long conversations with — well they call him ‘Michael’ —
Q: — even though there’s an amassing of different spirits. They also have nicknames for other spirits. (“BUT”) Their nickname for the phenomena is — was Michael.
Q: Now let me just read you a little bit from the original Bell Witch case. This was — this book was copyrighted in 1894 by M. V. Ingram and, let’s see, on page 30 it says, ‘Kate’ — (“THEY”) — their nickname for the Entity was ‘Kate’ as opposed to this family, which chose ‘Michael.’
N*: Right. Q: (“BUT”) It says:
Q: So (on archive tape ‘so’ is replaced by ‘no’ here) when I was interviewing the family in Oklahoma — the contemporary family, one of the stories that Twyla, who was the young girl —
N*: Yeah. Yeah.
Q: — who was the closest to fitting what people normally think of (as) ‘the focus’ or ‘agent’ of the poltergeist.
N*: Right. Right.
Q: Anyway, she told me a story basically where she’d heard a conversation word-for-word before it actually happened. (“SHE” [ARCHIVE TAPE ONLY]) She heard it from her room. Her sister was talking to her friend —
Q: — in the other room but then when she went out of the room, her sister was still there. It was about a flat tire.
N: Yeah, I was just going to say — the flat tire incident I read — yeah.
Q: Right, exactly.
Q: So (“WHEN”) this — I could see a parallel between the Bell Witch case and the sermons and this that happened between the sisters when I was in Oklahoma. Now another thing that really struck me when I was researching this case, it said (“THAT”) — well they called her ‘the witch’ or ‘Kate.’ But they said that Jesse’s wife was nicknamed ‘Pots’ by the Entity. And I had researched another famous poltergeist case called The Haunting of Cashen’s Gap — “A Modern ‘Miracle’ Investigated” by Harry Price and R. S. Lambert. It was first published in 1936 and the phenomena in this case began in 1931. But on page 29 (“I HA[D]”) I read:
The mongoose usually called Mr. Irving ‘Jim’ or ‘Pots’ . . .
Q: So (on archive tape ‘so’ is replaced by ‘no’ here) that really struck me. Just to give you an idea of this other case because basically it centered around an Entity that would do coin tricks and tell them secrets about other people in the area — (“BUT IT”) claimed to be a talking mongoose.
N: (small laugh) Right.
Q: Have you heard about that?
N: Yeah. Yeah. I got —
N: — I got some of that out of this book here.
Q: Oh right. So yeah. So I discussed this with the family at the time because there were a number of parallels. For example, the weatherboarding on the house is something that usually comes up in poltergeist cases and it’s hard to know what the meaning is. Now when I went to — when I was in Oklahoma, the first thing I heard — (“ONE OF THE”) the first strange things I heard was this strange sound. It was — it’s really undescribable. It was like a science fiction sound. It was — I can’t even describe it but it was bouncing around from corner to corner in the house. And it sounded sort of like a cat yowing but it was metallic (“AND IT WAS”) — it was just all over. It was going from corner to corner in the — the house. So I, I almost felt it was really — I said, “Well that’s really more like an — (“AA”) an alien transmission, really.” I mean it’s — because they said it sounded like a cat. You know, it was really bizarre. So I was — my little mind was going to work by thinking, “Well they always talked about the witches’ familiars.” (“N” “I MEAN” “YOU KNOW YOU”) You try to connect the dots. And this was the first thing that had happened to me there but just to give you an idea of this other case—(“THE”) the Gef talking mongoose case—I’ll read you one of the descriptions (“FROM” “THE”) the book. (“IT”) There’s a section at the end called “Gef’s Activities,” 1931 through 1935. And on July 20th it says very succinctly — oh and this is 1934 I should add:
July 20th Two young visitors from Wavertree have tea at Doarlish Cashen. Gef refuses to speak, but performs penny trick, also shuts Vorrey into her bedroom by means of catch fastening on the outside of her door. After the visitors’ departure Mrs. Irving scolds Gef for not talking to them, and ignores his pleas for food. Gef thumps on the paneling, and after Voirrey has given him some biscuits, throws the crumbs in her face. In reply to Mrs. Irving’s request to tell her what he is, Gef replies, ‘Of course I know what I am, and you are not going to get to know, and you are only grigged because I won’t tell you. I might let you see me some time, but thou wilt never get to know what I am.’
N*: (small laugh) Ha ohh.
Q: So (on archive tape ‘so’ is replaced by ‘no’ here) — (“AND ONE”) another point. On December 27th of the same year:
. . . Gef claims: ‘I am the Holy Ghost.’
Q: And he would sing songs, some of which they knew and others that they didn’t know. But now when I was interviewing the family, I was trying to put what I had learned from researching famous poltergeist cases with theirs. Now with their case, they had the added element of aliens. (“AN”) I don’t know if you read some of those stories but there were different aliens who claimed to be from Saturn.
Q: And they’d heard (“CLAI”) — a voice tell them that they had to (“GET”) — documents about flying saucers or something from the courthouse in A(da), nearby Ada (I should have said nearby Coalgate) and there was all this strange business going on. And they’d — once I think Maxine had told me (“THAT”) she’d heard — well first she said that she’d — she’d never seen any UFOs but then she was telling me that she heard this sound like something landing on the top of their car, some little — and I said, “Well that’s a — that —” I told her, “That’s a UFO.” So they were having all these different experiences. (“AND”) They didn’t really know what to think of them either. But (or “BUT”) when I (“K”) came back from having interviewed the family, the phenomena (“WAS”) was still happening to me. It was — (“IF”) if anything, it was escalating. There were coins appearing. I mean I realized that this was something (“SOMETHING” “YOU KNOW”) beyond anything I ever could have prepared myself for.
Q: (“CUA I”) I was thinking back through my life and thinking of (“YOU KNOW THIS”) — I began putting the symbols together in terms of (“LIKE”) the Paramount mountain and the burning bushes and the name Michael (“I”) — I was thinking of the angel Michael. As you read in the introduction, I was able to see parallels between all these other paranormal cases. And when I first — (“I”) then I came to the realization of, “Oh my God, I might be the reincarnation of Jesus.” With all this happening. Because there were many different — (“THERE WAS”) moral elements in play too. And it’s really hard to put it into words. That’s why I decided just to publish the interview transcripts — (“NN” “PEOPLE”) let people read them as I experienced it in a documentary fashion.
N: Right. Yeah.
Q: So, anyway, I started researching — oh I first I tried to heal someone in the area (“WHO” “HAD”) who couldn’t walk and I realized that I couldn’t heal people. I mean that was my first impulse was to see (“WHAT”) what exactly was going on. So I started researching Jesus and I didn’t really get very far (“N”) but then my friend Marie — we were — I was discussing if I should have a pseudonym for the book because, you know, my — my name at the time was Mark Gordon Russell.
Q: And I was talking to my friend Marie over the phone. I said, “Well I wonder if I should have a pseudonym?” And the next day she was crossing Sunset Boulevard and she heard a disembodied voice say, “MARK RUSSELL BELL.” And then she looked down and saw a Bell Telephone Book out of place on the sidewalk. So she rushed home and she had to call me and tell me, (“WW”) “It’s Mark Russell Bell.” And she was, you know, shocked. Nothing like that had ever happened to her. I mean she’s very much a creature of the rock industry, (“AN”) music. (“IN”)
Q: She’s worked (“IN”), you know, as an extra in films. Anyway, (“SOMETH[IN]G”) she’s had a few experiences and I ended up interviewing her in the book. But that’s really when I decided to take as a pseudonym Mark Russell Bell.
Q: So, anyway, I was researching Jesus and then I got to that — the book that you mentioned, The Wars of Gods and Men by Zecharia Sitchin. And I looked up in the index Jesus. (“AND IT”) It said page (“TWO”) 224. And you read a little bit of what I read but, anyway, it says — I have it in front of me and it says:
The ancient “script” begins with an introduction of the actors. The first one “is Bel, who was confined in The Mountain.”
Q: So I thought, “Oh well I was working at Paramount Pictures with the mountain logo and I was trapped there in that — the evil corporate system.” (“SO I” [telephone call tape]/”I” [archive tape]) I was seeing different parallels there. And I don’t know if you mentioned this or not:
. . . When Stephen Langdon included an English translation in his 1923 volume on the Mesopotamian New Year Mystery Texts, he titled the text The Death and Resurrection of Bel-Marduk and highlighted its parallels to the New Testament tale of the death and resurrection of Jesus.
Q: So I said, “Oh well okay I’m not the reincarnation of Jesus. I’m the reincarnation of Bel-Marduk.” And soon after that I — I read in my horoscope “gifts of love” so I thought, “Hmmm.” I’d already purchased a Declaration of Independence which looks to me like the original. I mean I’ve ha(d) — I’ve taken it to (“LIKE”) The Huntington Museum and to various places, (“BUTTER”) Butterfield and Butterfield. (“AN”) They won’t even look at — I mean they just think, “Oh it’s impossible.” And they won’t even look at it but it does look to me like the original. I mean you can see erasings. I’ve researched the Declaration of Independence and this paper — (“IT’S LIKE”) it’s got grooved — it’s grooved parchment that looks really, really old. It really — there’s no other facsimile that it could be. It has to be one of the originals.
Q: And I interviewed people at Independence Hall too — (“WHICH I”) included those in the book. Anyway, I still have it but (“YEAH I”) can’t get anybody who’s an authority (“TO E”) to look at it. (“SO”) What do you do?
N: You mean they won’t — they — they — they won’t even look at it period?
Q: Well I told — I told the woman at Independence Hall — I said, “Listen, I’ll be glad to fly over and show it to you but I don’t — I want — you know, I want really I want people to look at it. I don’t want people just to leave it in the glass and just say, “Oh no, that’s (“NO[T]”) — that’s nothing” and then, you know, walk off. And she — (“N”) anyway, she couldn’t make any promises so to this day (“I”) I haven’t really had anyone really examine it. But I showed it to (“MY”) like my friends and (“I MEAN”) if you look at it with the grooves and the parch(ment) — the parchment, it really — (“AN”) and the erase — the erasing marks, it really looks like the original. But, anyway, (“I HAVE”) there’s a number of other things that I — I felt that — that the Angel Michael/Mighael was taking me to different antique shops and having me purchase lost relics and paintings of history to prove Their existence. By the way, I should say that in all of these cases the haunting presence always refers to Themselves as “WE.” Like in Edgar Cayce, they always said at the end of the sessions, ‘WE ARE THROUGH.’ And, again, with Messages From Michael it was an amassing of different spirits. (“N”) With Madame Blavatsky, she called Them the Mahatmas. (“SO”) There was always a plurality. In fact, there was another famous poltergeist case in 1839 that happened to Mary Jobson and the Spirit in this case called Themselves some of the usual terms in Christianity: “Alpha and Omega; the beginning and the ending,” “The Lord They God”—not ‘Thy’ God but ‘They God,” and “The Son of God.” “The Virgin Mary” was another part of this different amassing of spirits. So I — I realized (“THAT”), anyway, that this amassing of spirits was leading me to document my own awakening (“A[ND]”) — to my previous life — (“N I”) at the time I thought, “Wow.” And I didn’t realize that I was going to be tested further in terms of morality. (“I THOUGHT”) You know, I thought, “Oh well, this is inter(esting).” I didn’t realize that I was going to get in trouble. Many times. For example, I went to work at Rogers & Cown and — (“WHICH IS” or “WITCHES”) a very well-known publicity firm that works on movie cases. (“AA”) Ironically, (“I”) I worked on the movie “The Game.” I think that’s the last movie I worked on. I did the positioning for the movie “The Game” starring who was it? Michael Douglas?
N: Michael Douglas, yes. Yeah.
Q: Okay. (“SO YEAH”) And that’s another thing I should add that there’ve always (“THE”) been these (“MANY”) people named Michael in my life. I remember when I was working at Paramount there were all these different Michaels in the department: (“THERE WAS LIKE”) Michael Kochman and Michael Berman in the photo department, Michael Wuetcher, my brother Michael, Michael Battaglia, the leg(al consultant for the department was Michael Zucker) — I mean there were are the(se) — (“I MEAN”) that’s another thing that’s happened. I’ve always had this Michael synchronicity and this Bell synchronicity. (“AND” heard only on archive tape)
N: Do you want — do you want another one?
Q: You. Your middle name.
N: My middle name is Mikeal.
Q: Yeah, I saw that. I saw your middle name (“IS”) but it’s spelled M — I — K — E — A — L.
N*: Yeah. (second time)
Q: Which is interesting. (“AT”) Now in these various paranormal cases (“THE”) the names are always a little bit different. In terms of in each case you don’t really find two that have the same ‘presence.’ I researched A Dictionary of Angels by (Gustav) Davidson. And he does an excellent job of looking at all the famous archangels and really tracing them down just to the One, the Michael. In my case, one of the spirit messages told me to, quote, spell the name correctly as in night.
(TRANSCRIBER’ NOTE: THE VERBATIM MESSAGE WAS “DON’T MISSPELL ME” “LIKE IN NIGHT.”)
Q: (“SO I”) In my book I spell Michael as M — I — G — H — A — E — L.
Q: So, again, my book is a little bit different. (“N”) I think each case is a little bit different because the one thing I’ve learned, if anything, is that this Christ Consciousness wants people to make up their own minds for themselves in terms of each given situation. And, anyway, (“THAT’S”) that’s one thing that I definitely have learned. (“I MEAN A”) When I was at Roger’s and Cowan, I almost got killed walking up the stairs because (“PEOPLE”) some workers were (“CON”) going up the stairs and they were carrying this huge long pole and it just (missed) hit(ting) my head by inches. I mean if that isn’t a message, I don’t know what is. (“BUT”) At the time, I really — I didn’t know what to think. And, of course, I was not meant to work in the evil corporate world of Hollywood. And, boy, that place (Rogers and Cowan) — I had my share of problems, let me tell you. But I also met there the woman who apparently was my wife when I was Bel-Marduk or Ra-Ta and we — because there was this immediate connection. (“WE WENT TO”) We went to dinner at Dive! and I was interviewing her and as I was interviewing her, the Entity was — was eating French fries. We were having French fries. I mean this is before I became a vegan. And it — one even landed on the table in front of us. I mean she didn’t know — (“I MEAN”) when these things happen, people who aren’t accustomed to it — it’s just so normal and I mean there’s no (“THERE’S NO”) special effects or — it’s just (“AA”) French fry falling on a table so I could tell (“SHE DIDN’T UN”) she didn’t really know how to deal with it. Anyway, she wanted to go to bed with me. And I was telling her, “Now what you’re experiencing is basically (“AA”) a past life recollection.” I mean it’s — (“IT”) I mean this is definitely off the wall. I mean if this was a movie, you’d laugh. I mean it was so preposterous. And she (“WAS”) — she’s written screenplays about angels and I remember her telling me, “Guess what the theme of my angel movie is?” And I said, “What? That you should take responsibility for your actions?” She said, “No. (“TH”) Love!” (“YOU KNOW” “AA”) You know? I mean it was (“JUST AA”) it was — it was hilarious. Anyway, so let’s see. I’m trying to think what I basically should tell you. (“SO”) I mean I’ve had all these various experiences and — well first of all, do you have any questions at this point? Or do you just want to hear some more — and more of what happened?
N: I do have a question.
N: And what I’d like to do is I’d like you to — to take a quick break.
N: And it will give everybody a chance to sort of get up and get a drink or whatever. And when we come back we’ll — we’ll continue. And I’ve got a couple of questions for you. And I’ve also got some questions about stuff that’s been happening around here I wanted your opinion on.
Q: Oh okay, great.
N: I put you back in the ethereal green room and hold your thoughts there. And when we return — we will be — be back in just a few minutes and more with my guest tonight from Los Angeles, California, Mark Russell Bell, author of the book Testament. Stay right where you are.
[2021 UPDATE: REGARDING MY ANTIQUE VERSION OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, I HAD NOTICED THE "GROOVED" APPEARANCE WITH THE COLOR PHOTO IN TESTAMENT; HOWEVER, WHEN I WENT TO SEE THE ANTIQUE DOCUMENT AGAIN (AT THE PLACE WHERE IT IS BEING KEPT) I SAW THAT THERE ARE NO GROOVES. APPARENTLY THIS PHOTO ALTERATION WAS A RESULT OF THE PUBLISHING PROCESS.]