RADIO INTERVIEW — TAPE #758
Q: Mark Russell Bell
T: taped announcer, “NMB LIVE”
N: Norman Mikeal Berketa, host of “NMB Live” Internet show
A: Art Bell, broadcast excerpt with EVP
(TRANSCRIBER’S NOTE: THE ‘GREEN ROOM’ PORTION OF THE SHOW ALSO WASN’T CLEARLY AUDIBLE ON MY MICROCASSETTE. WHILE ON HOLD, THERE WERE PROGRAM ANNOUNCEMENTS, A SONG PLAYED AND I COULD HEAR NORMAN OCCASIONALLY SPEAK TO SOMEONE.)
T: Now aren’t you glad you didn’t watch that made-for-TV movie? You are listening to “I-Cast,” the intelligent radio broadcast on “NMB Live.” You can Email us your questions and comments right now. Send them to icast@nmblive.com. Once again your host is Norman Mikeal Berketa.
N: Well welcome back. If you’re just joining us, my guest is Mark Russell Bell and he’s the author of the book Testament. And Mark, welcome back to the program.
Q: Thank you.
N: You’re — sorry about that. I cut myself off. We’re in hour two and I had a question for you. When you were in Oklahoma and you were — you were interviewing the Mc Wethys and you were there for how long roughly?
Q: I came in just for a long weekend. I got lost on my way to Ada where I was staying and — let’s see. So I ended up going — I think it was a — I went — I interviewed on a Friday, Saturday and a Sunday. So I just basically did three days of interviews.
N*: Okay.
Q: And (“I”) so all you read in the book just happened during those three days, which is bizarre in itself because —
N: There was a lot of stuff going on there. (“EXA”)
Q: Yeah. I mean I’ve done a lot of interviews in my life and usually if you get ten pages of good interview material a day it’s good. (“BUT”) I mean it (“WAS”) — in fact, (“WW”) when I was asking the family about missing time, one of the EVPs said, “(YOU ARE) RIGHT NOW” or something (“LET”) to the effect that I was having a missing time episode and when I think back about it I was because I noticed (“THE”) an unus(ual) — I mean it sort of — time was — (“IT”) was not working correctly because we got all this done and plus there was a lot of time when the tape recorders were off that I was interacting with the family and they were (“SHAME” “I”) — Twyla took me on a tour of the area. So it was just — there was just too much getting accomplished. I do remember (“THAT THEIR”) the kids had to go to the bathroom a bit —
N*: Yes.
Q: — more than they should have.
N*: Yeah.
Q: That’s the only thing I can really remember (“THAT WAS A”) that was a giveaway that something was wrong. I should also state one of the (“THE”) more important aspects of this — because when you read the interviews you have to remember that — you have to look past the surface of what’s being said because what I realize is that the haunting Presence isn’t going to come out and tell you anything. Instead — (“B”) because obviously if — if (or “IF”) the Angel Mighael were to say something, the words could be turned around or misinterpreted or what-have-you. (“I[N]”) So, instead — abused. (“I MEAN”) People could say, (“OH WELL”) “The Angel Michael said this or that.” So, instead, I was being communicated to, through circumstances. And — for example, one of the family members told me about one of the spirits manifesting was named Leader who they thought was one of the aliens. There was also a Leader Creek in the area which we thought was quite ironic. (“AN”) I remember the little girl, Holli, was talking about once (“PUTTING HER”) trying to put her arms around it and it felt like — it felt really big, she said. (“WELL”) She does a better job of describing it than I did because (“NO”) my only contact with Leader was that when I was driving in the car, there was this groaning in the back seat which was like, “OUHOUHOUHOUHOUHOUHOUH,” which sounded to me like Lurch in “The Adams Family.”
N*: Right.
Q: But at the time Twyla said it was — (“ONE OF THIS” “ED” “SHE GA[VE]”) she assigned it a certain presence and then when I told Maxine later on, and she said that it was Leader. And (“I”) another thing that happened (“I[S]” “WHEN”) when I began that trip in the car is that a penny or a dime hit against the windshield — was thrown from the empty back seat and then a few — then like a second later a rock hit the windshield from outside so I was trying to make sense of this. (“I WA”) I think I said, ‘Well that means that Michael’s both inside and outside the car.’ But — so I heard the story about Leader and (“HAV”) hearing the aliens were from Saturn. (“WELL”) Anyway, after going home, one of my first social outings was going to a slide show at my brother’s house. He and his roommate at the time, James, were (“HA[V]”) having a slide show. (“WITH” “N”) Various people were bringing their slides of their recent trips. So (so has been replaced by “no” on the archive tape) I remember Charlotte said — she was showing (“UU”) us her photo and she said, ‘Now the man in the Hawaiian shirt was our tour leader.’ And then soon after that, another friend, Patty — she mentioned that her car was a Saturn. (“AND IT WAS”) So again I was adding up — connecting the dots and I realized that the Entity was communicating with me through the subconscious minds of other people and was using synchronicity and people’s subconscious to sort of teach me this. Sort of like in the movie “12 Monkeys,” which was another one of the last movies I ever saw. In that movie, of course, I remember that the people from the future were all shown in a giant orb-like device, which is sort of a good metaphor for the amassing of spirits, which — which Mighael is. And um one of the — the first EVPs in the book (“UM”) — I think I — I was saying that life is a morality test and the word “CON” making the word ‘contest’ was there from the EVP. I should also say too that before my trip — in the years before my trip, I was seeing an awful lot of angels movies. I saw — I also saw the play “Angels In America” here at the Mark Taper Forum — “Orlando” I think (“WAS”) probably the most striking one. I remember the “Twin Peaks” movie “Fire (“WW”) Walk With Me” ended with an angel. “Parting Glances” was another one. In fact, I also had — was one of the first people to read the script for “The Hudsucker Proxy” because I was — I helped a friend basically (“TO PP”) to position the film. So I did have a lot of angels in popular culture before my trip to Oklahoma.
N: Right.
Q: But (“NO”) so there were all kinds of strange things happening when I came back. I did see one vision — well actually (“OR” “TT”) there was one time when I saw what looked like a missile or a UFO rising up above the area where Dodgers Stadium was. And so I’ve thought about it a lot since then. And I really can see how someone like Nostradamus or something could have had these visions even though if you read Nostradamus’s letters, (“HE”) he talks about an awful(ly similar) strange technology that almost reminds you of movies.
(TRANSCRIBER’S NOTE: CENTURY I, QUATRAIN 1 READS AS FOLLOWS [TRANSLATION FROM THE NOSTRADAMUS ASTROLOGICAL DATEBOOK 1990 BY JOHN HOGUE AND CARMEN STRIDER].)
T: Now aren’t you glad you didn’t watch that made-for-TV movie? You are listening to “I-Cast,” the intelligent radio broadcast on “NMB Live.” You can Email us your questions and comments right now. Send them to icast@nmblive.com. Once again your host is Norman Mikeal Berketa.
N: Well welcome back. If you’re just joining us, my guest is Mark Russell Bell and he’s the author of the book Testament. And Mark, welcome back to the program.
Q: Thank you.
N: You’re — sorry about that. I cut myself off. We’re in hour two and I had a question for you. When you were in Oklahoma and you were — you were interviewing the Mc Wethys and you were there for how long roughly?
Q: I came in just for a long weekend. I got lost on my way to Ada where I was staying and — let’s see. So I ended up going — I think it was a — I went — I interviewed on a Friday, Saturday and a Sunday. So I just basically did three days of interviews.
N*: Okay.
Q: And (“I”) so all you read in the book just happened during those three days, which is bizarre in itself because —
N: There was a lot of stuff going on there. (“EXA”)
Q: Yeah. I mean I’ve done a lot of interviews in my life and usually if you get ten pages of good interview material a day it’s good. (“BUT”) I mean it (“WAS”) — in fact, (“WW”) when I was asking the family about missing time, one of the EVPs said, “(YOU ARE) RIGHT NOW” or something (“LET”) to the effect that I was having a missing time episode and when I think back about it I was because I noticed (“THE”) an unus(ual) — I mean it sort of — time was — (“IT”) was not working correctly because we got all this done and plus there was a lot of time when the tape recorders were off that I was interacting with the family and they were (“SHAME” “I”) — Twyla took me on a tour of the area. So it was just — there was just too much getting accomplished. I do remember (“THAT THEIR”) the kids had to go to the bathroom a bit —
N*: Yes.
Q: — more than they should have.
N*: Yeah.
Q: That’s the only thing I can really remember (“THAT WAS A”) that was a giveaway that something was wrong. I should also state one of the (“THE”) more important aspects of this — because when you read the interviews you have to remember that — you have to look past the surface of what’s being said because what I realize is that the haunting Presence isn’t going to come out and tell you anything. Instead — (“B”) because obviously if — if (or “IF”) the Angel Mighael were to say something, the words could be turned around or misinterpreted or what-have-you. (“I[N]”) So, instead — abused. (“I MEAN”) People could say, (“OH WELL”) “The Angel Michael said this or that.” So, instead, I was being communicated to, through circumstances. And — for example, one of the family members told me about one of the spirits manifesting was named Leader who they thought was one of the aliens. There was also a Leader Creek in the area which we thought was quite ironic. (“AN”) I remember the little girl, Holli, was talking about once (“PUTTING HER”) trying to put her arms around it and it felt like — it felt really big, she said. (“WELL”) She does a better job of describing it than I did because (“NO”) my only contact with Leader was that when I was driving in the car, there was this groaning in the back seat which was like, “OUHOUHOUHOUHOUHOUHOUH,” which sounded to me like Lurch in “The Adams Family.”
N*: Right.
Q: But at the time Twyla said it was — (“ONE OF THIS” “ED” “SHE GA[VE]”) she assigned it a certain presence and then when I told Maxine later on, and she said that it was Leader. And (“I”) another thing that happened (“I[S]” “WHEN”) when I began that trip in the car is that a penny or a dime hit against the windshield — was thrown from the empty back seat and then a few — then like a second later a rock hit the windshield from outside so I was trying to make sense of this. (“I WA”) I think I said, ‘Well that means that Michael’s both inside and outside the car.’ But — so I heard the story about Leader and (“HAV”) hearing the aliens were from Saturn. (“WELL”) Anyway, after going home, one of my first social outings was going to a slide show at my brother’s house. He and his roommate at the time, James, were (“HA[V]”) having a slide show. (“WITH” “N”) Various people were bringing their slides of their recent trips. So (so has been replaced by “no” on the archive tape) I remember Charlotte said — she was showing (“UU”) us her photo and she said, ‘Now the man in the Hawaiian shirt was our tour leader.’ And then soon after that, another friend, Patty — she mentioned that her car was a Saturn. (“AND IT WAS”) So again I was adding up — connecting the dots and I realized that the Entity was communicating with me through the subconscious minds of other people and was using synchronicity and people’s subconscious to sort of teach me this. Sort of like in the movie “12 Monkeys,” which was another one of the last movies I ever saw. In that movie, of course, I remember that the people from the future were all shown in a giant orb-like device, which is sort of a good metaphor for the amassing of spirits, which — which Mighael is. And um one of the — the first EVPs in the book (“UM”) — I think I — I was saying that life is a morality test and the word “CON” making the word ‘contest’ was there from the EVP. I should also say too that before my trip — in the years before my trip, I was seeing an awful lot of angels movies. I saw — I also saw the play “Angels In America” here at the Mark Taper Forum — “Orlando” I think (“WAS”) probably the most striking one. I remember the “Twin Peaks” movie “Fire (“WW”) Walk With Me” ended with an angel. “Parting Glances” was another one. In fact, I also had — was one of the first people to read the script for “The Hudsucker Proxy” because I was — I helped a friend basically (“TO PP”) to position the film. So I did have a lot of angels in popular culture before my trip to Oklahoma.
N: Right.
Q: But (“NO”) so there were all kinds of strange things happening when I came back. I did see one vision — well actually (“OR” “TT”) there was one time when I saw what looked like a missile or a UFO rising up above the area where Dodgers Stadium was. And so I’ve thought about it a lot since then. And I really can see how someone like Nostradamus or something could have had these visions even though if you read Nostradamus’s letters, (“HE”) he talks about an awful(ly similar) strange technology that almost reminds you of movies.
(TRANSCRIBER’S NOTE: CENTURY I, QUATRAIN 1 READS AS FOLLOWS [TRANSLATION FROM THE NOSTRADAMUS ASTROLOGICAL DATEBOOK 1990 BY JOHN HOGUE AND CARMEN STRIDER].)
I sit at night alone in secret studyResting upon the brass tripod:A thin flame comes forth from the solitudeMaking successful that which should not be believed in vain.
Q: So it’s hard to really know what was going on but having had one vision I would say that anything — anything is possible. I remember another experience I had that ties in with movies is when I’d seen the movie “Day of the Locust.” I think one of the little things that disturbed me was this jump cut early in the film where they showed some of the people who’d come to Hollywood—and dressed in these Baby Jane-type outfits with the make-up and everything —
N*: Right. Right.
Q: — sitting (“ON AA”) on a bench waiting for a bus. And then like a bus passes it — (“YOU KNOW LIKE” “JUST”) not stopping but just passes it and they’re gone so it’s sort of like a jump cut. And I thought, “Oh well I’m not too thrilled with that (technique).
N*: (small laugh)
Q: I don’t — I — I don’t know the meaning of that.” Well that happened to me too once when I was living in Santa Monica. So (“IT JUST”) — it ma(kes) — it just makes you wonder what exactly — just how — how much is reality? (“MM”) What is reality?
N*: Right.
Q: So one of the things that happened to me when I was — when I’d come home from (“OKLAHOMA”) Oklahoma (“IT WAS”) I decided to research my family ancestry, thinking that maybe this was — (“THIS IS”) well I was trying to put everything together and I thought, “Well maybe this is a family curse.” (“NO” [archive tape]) Maybe this is some kind of demon that (“THAT”) plagues the Bells. So I was wondering if I had Bell ancestry so I got my uncle Bob to send me what was left of the family tree. And I didn’t see any last names Bells but there were some other people with first or middle names Bell/Belle. In fact, some of my (“MM”) mother’s sisters were Hanna Bell and Clara Bell. So (“ANOTHER”) the Bell synchronicity is another quite interesting synchronicity. I think in the news recently we’ve had Bellingham and The Beltway Sniper in the news but (“THERE’S”) in all the books I’ve read since my experience, I’m always noticing the Bell synchronicity.
N: Right.
Q: In fact, my mom who is — watches television. She’s a chronic television viewer because she’s sick. She’s a dialysis patient and there really isn’t a lot that she can do.
N*: Yeah.
Q: So she just watches TV all day. Every time I go near the TV or at least usually, (“THERE’S” “SOME”) there’s a commercial with ‘bell’ in it or she’s watching “Jeopardy” and there’s a clue that has the word “bell” — I mean it’s just fascinating to me. The Bell synchronicity. So one day when I was (“I MEAN A[T]” [telephone tape]) at Echo Park I was thinking about going to the library downtown to research to see what I could find there. And — and then I said, “Oh no I’ll go some other time.” (“I”) I procrastinate — what can I tell you? Well my key would not fit into the lock. (“I MEAN A” “YEAH”) Something that normally you do a thousand times and you don’t think anything of it but on this occasion (“THE”) the key would not go in so I said, “Uh oh, I guess I should go to the library after all.” So that day I found a very rare book that they had in their (“UM”) special department. They have a really good, um, research department for families — family trees and ancestry. And there was this book called Historical Memoirs of the First Race of Ancestry, Whence The House of Russell Had Its Origin: From The Subjugation of Norway to the Norman Conquest by J. H. Wiffen. And this was published in London in 1833 by Carpenter and Son on Old Bond Street. And basically it show(s) — one of the first things it shows in the book is this lineage — (“OF WHAT”) what is called the “First Race” and it’s basically a lineage of kings coming — starting with Olaf the Sharp-eyed, King of Rerik — whatever that is. And then going — and ending up with on this page to Hugh (“BB”) Bertrand, born A.D. looks like 1024 —
(TRANSCRIBER’S NOTE: THE PHOTOCOPY IS HARD TO READ. IT IS 1021 AND THE FOLLOWING IS FROM PAGE 77 OF HISTORICAL MEMOIRS.)
N*: Right. Right.
Q: — sitting (“ON AA”) on a bench waiting for a bus. And then like a bus passes it — (“YOU KNOW LIKE” “JUST”) not stopping but just passes it and they’re gone so it’s sort of like a jump cut. And I thought, “Oh well I’m not too thrilled with that (technique).
N*: (small laugh)
Q: I don’t — I — I don’t know the meaning of that.” Well that happened to me too once when I was living in Santa Monica. So (“IT JUST”) — it ma(kes) — it just makes you wonder what exactly — just how — how much is reality? (“MM”) What is reality?
N*: Right.
Q: So one of the things that happened to me when I was — when I’d come home from (“OKLAHOMA”) Oklahoma (“IT WAS”) I decided to research my family ancestry, thinking that maybe this was — (“THIS IS”) well I was trying to put everything together and I thought, “Well maybe this is a family curse.” (“NO” [archive tape]) Maybe this is some kind of demon that (“THAT”) plagues the Bells. So I was wondering if I had Bell ancestry so I got my uncle Bob to send me what was left of the family tree. And I didn’t see any last names Bells but there were some other people with first or middle names Bell/Belle. In fact, some of my (“MM”) mother’s sisters were Hanna Bell and Clara Bell. So (“ANOTHER”) the Bell synchronicity is another quite interesting synchronicity. I think in the news recently we’ve had Bellingham and The Beltway Sniper in the news but (“THERE’S”) in all the books I’ve read since my experience, I’m always noticing the Bell synchronicity.
N: Right.
Q: In fact, my mom who is — watches television. She’s a chronic television viewer because she’s sick. She’s a dialysis patient and there really isn’t a lot that she can do.
N*: Yeah.
Q: So she just watches TV all day. Every time I go near the TV or at least usually, (“THERE’S” “SOME”) there’s a commercial with ‘bell’ in it or she’s watching “Jeopardy” and there’s a clue that has the word “bell” — I mean it’s just fascinating to me. The Bell synchronicity. So one day when I was (“I MEAN A[T]” [telephone tape]) at Echo Park I was thinking about going to the library downtown to research to see what I could find there. And — and then I said, “Oh no I’ll go some other time.” (“I”) I procrastinate — what can I tell you? Well my key would not fit into the lock. (“I MEAN A” “YEAH”) Something that normally you do a thousand times and you don’t think anything of it but on this occasion (“THE”) the key would not go in so I said, “Uh oh, I guess I should go to the library after all.” So that day I found a very rare book that they had in their (“UM”) special department. They have a really good, um, research department for families — family trees and ancestry. And there was this book called Historical Memoirs of the First Race of Ancestry, Whence The House of Russell Had Its Origin: From The Subjugation of Norway to the Norman Conquest by J. H. Wiffen. And this was published in London in 1833 by Carpenter and Son on Old Bond Street. And basically it show(s) — one of the first things it shows in the book is this lineage — (“OF WHAT”) what is called the “First Race” and it’s basically a lineage of kings coming — starting with Olaf the Sharp-eyed, King of Rerik — whatever that is. And then going — and ending up with on this page to Hugh (“BB”) Bertrand, born A.D. looks like 1024 —
(TRANSCRIBER’S NOTE: THE PHOTOCOPY IS HARD TO READ. IT IS 1021 AND THE FOLLOWING IS FROM PAGE 77 OF HISTORICAL MEMOIRS.)
Hugh de Rozel may have been born about the year 1021, and have been invested with the castles of Barneville and Le Rozel towards 1045, when fully capable of defending them with sword and shield; or otherwise, upon his marriage, or the death of the Baron of Briquebec. But, besides these fiefs, he had possessions in the isle of Guernsey as well as in Jersey, where a hamlet bearing his surname still exists. A third domain belonged to him in the neighbourhood of Caen, which took also the name of Rosel; and he enjoyed,of the favour of Duke William, other beneficiary lands at Grainville and Grouchy, in the same vicinity.
Q: — “Lord of Barneville and Le Rozel.” And I guess Le Rozel ended up becoming Russell. Well just to read you from the preface. This book says:
The motive for my undertaking this history of the early Lineage of the House of Russell is explained in the Preface to the “Historical Memoirs” of that family, to which it properly forms an Introduction. The incidents recorded will, it is presumed, be found of interest, not only from their novelty, and as indicating the common source whence the Dukes of Normandy arose, but as conveying a sketch of the wild and predatory habits which distinguished the northern nations during the dark ages. They are the result of research amongst the Icelandic writers, particularly Snorro, whose annuls of the achievements of the Scandinavian heroes are frequently illustrated by curious extracts from the runes of the Scalds, by whom they were at first commemorated.
A genealogical table is prefixed, in order to elucidate the narrative, which acquires a more familiar air of authenticity when it enters the Norman branch of the Turstains and the Bertrands, barons of Briquebec in Lower Normandy.
A genealogical table is prefixed, in order to elucidate the narrative, which acquires a more familiar air of authenticity when it enters the Norman branch of the Turstains and the Bertrands, barons of Briquebec in Lower Normandy.
N Wow.
Q: It says basically:
Q: It says basically:
The rise of the Russell surname synchronizes also with the first usage of heraldic arms.
Q: (“DOESN’T REALLY SA[Y]”) It doesn’t really say much. But, anyway, I’ve (“BEEN”) been able to trace the Russell family back to this old ancient king. So I should say probably one of the other cases that I ended up finding when I was doing research there at the library concerned someone by the name (“OF”) Alice Belle Kirby. (“AA”) Now Belle was her middle name with the E on the end.
N: Okay.
N*: Okay. Yeah.
Q: (“AN” [telephone tape]) I think of all the cases, this pretty much (“SHOW”) shows a lot about the nature of the phenomena. (“TH”) I found this in (“A”) a Newsweek article from November 28, 1938. But basically it talked about — well I’ll read you a little bit of it. I have it here. It says:
N: Okay.
N*: Okay. Yeah.
Q: (“AN” [telephone tape]) I think of all the cases, this pretty much (“SHOW”) shows a lot about the nature of the phenomena. (“TH”) I found this in (“A”) a Newsweek article from November 28, 1938. But basically it talked about — well I’ll read you a little bit of it. I have it here. It says:
Newspaper readers scoffed last week at tales of “miracles” performed by Alice Belle Kirby, 13-year-old daughter of a cotton and corn farmer in Jonesville, La. The stories told how 5,000 persons had gone to see Alice Belle perform such stunts as making tables dance, playing a piano without touching it, and staying suspended in the air.
A Newsweek correspondent visited Alice Belle and found her an ash-blonde, gray-eyed child with far more than usual poise for her age. She took him into a darkened room and promptly astonished him — although the spirits had previously failed another reporter, who had been told to return for a second try four months hence. As the correspondent reported by telegram: “Table she used with me ordinary one which had no draperies and apparently nothing attached. I firmly held her hands and despite pressure I exerted table came up and pressed against my chest.”
Later the furniture repeated its dance, and the reporter learned that under Alice Belle’s promptings ten other tables had destroyed themselves — seven small specimens and three large dining-room tables. Mystified, the Newsweek reporter interviewed seasoned and normally skeptical fellow townsmen of Alice Belle.
H. W. Wright, for 21 years education superintendent of Catahoula County, declared he had seen Alice Belle make a table leave a room, walk down the hall, through a screen door, proceed ten paces into the yard, and then return. F. H. Shiel, Alice Belle’s school principal, testified to similarly astonishing performances. Charles E. Smith, assistant manager of a Jonesville motor company, described the child’s levitation powers: “I saw her rise slowly into the air about 2 feet with nothing in the world to hold her.”
Alice Belle begins each seance with the same incantation, her grandmother’s: “If there be any spirits present, show me a sign by tipping the table.” If the spirit is disobedient, she calls it a dumb cluck.
This week the dumb clucks wouldn’t work. After Alice Belle and her mother flew to New York Monday, the child couldn’t move any furniture despite her constant pleading: “Come, table, rise.” Although they’d accepted transportation expenses to appear on a radio program, they weren’t sure whether they’d take up a challenge by Joseph Dunninger, head of the Universal Council for Psychic Research, who maintains a $10,000 standing offer to anyone producing phenomena he can’t (“MA[T]”) mechanically duplicate.
A Newsweek correspondent visited Alice Belle and found her an ash-blonde, gray-eyed child with far more than usual poise for her age. She took him into a darkened room and promptly astonished him — although the spirits had previously failed another reporter, who had been told to return for a second try four months hence. As the correspondent reported by telegram: “Table she used with me ordinary one which had no draperies and apparently nothing attached. I firmly held her hands and despite pressure I exerted table came up and pressed against my chest.”
Later the furniture repeated its dance, and the reporter learned that under Alice Belle’s promptings ten other tables had destroyed themselves — seven small specimens and three large dining-room tables. Mystified, the Newsweek reporter interviewed seasoned and normally skeptical fellow townsmen of Alice Belle.
H. W. Wright, for 21 years education superintendent of Catahoula County, declared he had seen Alice Belle make a table leave a room, walk down the hall, through a screen door, proceed ten paces into the yard, and then return. F. H. Shiel, Alice Belle’s school principal, testified to similarly astonishing performances. Charles E. Smith, assistant manager of a Jonesville motor company, described the child’s levitation powers: “I saw her rise slowly into the air about 2 feet with nothing in the world to hold her.”
Alice Belle begins each seance with the same incantation, her grandmother’s: “If there be any spirits present, show me a sign by tipping the table.” If the spirit is disobedient, she calls it a dumb cluck.
This week the dumb clucks wouldn’t work. After Alice Belle and her mother flew to New York Monday, the child couldn’t move any furniture despite her constant pleading: “Come, table, rise.” Although they’d accepted transportation expenses to appear on a radio program, they weren’t sure whether they’d take up a challenge by Joseph Dunninger, head of the Universal Council for Psychic Research, who maintains a $10,000 standing offer to anyone producing phenomena he can’t (“MA[T]”) mechanically duplicate.
Q: Well I can tell you one thing. That the Entity or the Consciousness or the Force—whatever word you want to use—doesn’t do anything when it’s instructed to do it —
N*: Yes.
Q: — but basically manifests around certain people as a metaphor for others.
N*: Yeah.
Q: And that’s why you have people like Sai Baba—I might even add Tiger Woods—who (or “WHO”) are able (“TT”) — and myself for that matter (“WE[LL]”) because there’s constantly pennies around me. (“IT’S”) It’s not us doing it (“TO”) — if we — (“IF YOU”) we can’t tell you how we’re doing it, we’re not doing it. (“BUT SOME”) Someone else is.
N*: Yeah.
Q: And you said you had some things happening there and I’d be glad to tell you my interpretation of them.
N*: Sure.
N: Yeah. (“BB”) Before I — I do that, though, I want to sort of — what you just said (“WHEN” [telephone tape]) when you were in the car and I think this was early on in your — your visit in Oklahoma when they were talking about the graveyard. And you said, “Well I want to go there tonight.” (“AN I”) And wh(en) — you were driving in the car and, of course, you started to hear the (or “THE”) — the (or “THE”) — the voice in the back.
Q: Right.
N*: And I —
N: Think at that point she had said to you, ‘Boy, that’s unusual. It’s (“RICHER” or “RICHAR[D]”) doing things — it’s — it’s doing things for you it doesn’t usually do for most people. It has to get to know them first.’ So there was obviously a connection there from the beginning, wasn’t there, with you?
Q: Well the Christ Consciousness, I’m sure, is on intimate terms with every single one of us. I mean animals and people. And in my case things that happened to me — for example, I would wake in the middle of the night as if someone had just grabbed my leg. And I just said, “Oh that was a muscle contortion.” (“I MEAN”) It felt like someone had just grabbed my leg. Well after I came back from Oklahoma and felt the same thing, I said, “Michael, stop that.” (“O” “YOU KNOW”) What el(se) — I mean I (“IT WAS ABLE TO”) — I understood exactly what was going on. There was another occasion when my mother had called me and was — I don’t know. She was chewing me out for something or — anyway, I put the phone down for a while. (“AN”) When I came back, she was still talking. And I said, (“WELL I”) you know, ‘I showed you. I walked away from the phone and came back.’ And she said, (“I — I”) ‘No, you didn’t because I heard you breathing.’
N: Oh my goodness. (small laugh)
Q: Anyway — well exactly. (“SO” [telephone tape]/”GO” [archive tape]) (“AN AA UH”) There were other things too like once I remember when I was having computer problems I called up IBM and, of course, the one who was helping me at the time was named Mohammed. While I was taping the call for my documentary — and I had very firmly put the phone down with the tape recorder going upstairs onto the chair so it would not fall. And I went downstairs to my computer with — (“YOU KNOW ON”) on my portable phone to do whatever he instructed. Well as I’m downstairs I hear the phone (“HIT THE”) hit the floor (“YOU KNOW”) loudly enough. (“I MEAN YOU KNOW” “I MEAN LIL”) Just little things like that constantly happening and, of course, with the EVP and the spirit messages there were all kinds of thing — things going on. I mean there was — there was once even when I heard “YOUUUUUU, MEEEEEE, OHHHHHH.” I mean (“YOU KNOW”) there was (“I[T]”) — there was like a definite sexual ingredient. In fact, (“WHEN I WAS”) when I — I was asking the family — I was saying — (“NOW THE” “THIS”) one of the sisters was named Brenda and she was gay. So I was saying, (“ONE”) ‘(It) would be interesting to get the poltergeist’s thoughts about somebody being gay.’ (“WELL”) As I was playing back this tape, the Entity said, “(IT’S) YOU AND ME.” And all of a sudden I had this huge erection that I mean I haven’t experienced anything like (“SINCE”) — I’d say when I was maybe 18. (“I MEAN”) So, basically, the Entity was showing me something — (“ONE”) another one of Their tricks. Basically. I mean it wasn’t — I didn’t feel (“MM”) menaced in any way. Another thing happened when I was — (“I’M ALSO”) I also had the feeling (“LIKE”) I turned on the radio and somebody was talking about saving somebody from choking on something. I mean so basically — I basically was communicated through what I experienced that the Force physically is responsible with you for every single bodily function. (“I MEAN IT’S”) It’s an Energy, basically, that’s around all of us — the organizing Force (“OF”) of the universe and the reason why people don’t all go to the same restaurant; (“AN” “YOU KNOW” “AA WA”) who wakes us up in the morning (“AN[D WHEN] WE GO TO”) — puts us to sleep at night. Or doesn’t — depending on if we’ve been very good or very bad. And (“ONE OF THE” “I MEAN”) I’ve always felt nothing but love — well a few times (“I’VE”) I’ve been in trouble but I’ve (“NO”) normally felt a lot of love. (“LIKE I”) For example, I remember waking up early one morning when it was still dark, which was very unusual for me at the time. And I picked up a poetry book and it said — the first thing I read was “Good morning, darling.” I mean you know. (“I MEAN”) So I mean (“THERE WERE SOME”) there were some bad times. Like the first time when I tried to edit out (“SOME” “SOME OF THE”) the story. I was going to — I rewound the tape and was going to tape over a portion about seeing a character in a porno magazine (“THAT LOOKED”) like me — porno cartoon that looked like me.
N*: (small laugh)
Q: Anyway, this tape was destroyed by the Entity and I got the message that I’m not allowed to do that. (“GG” “I MEAN”) Basically, honesty really is important. So (or “SO”) — so, anyway —
N: These EVPs now — I’m — I’m — I’m — I’m awfully curious about this. How — have you always been able to hear them? Are they — how audible are they? Or do you have any kind of special equipment that you can hear these on?
Q: Well let me (“TELL”) — let me explain that because it’s ver(y) — I mean this is fascinating in itself.
N*: Yeah.
Q: I had never heard of — of course, I didn’t even know — when I published Testament they’re not called EVP. I just put down “spirit messages” and I knew it was going to be a very big problem because (“I”) I had never heard of such a thing at the time. (“AND I DIDN’T”) I didn’t know if anyone would believe it but I had (“TO” “I”) — this is what I was experiencing. I had to tell the truth. So (“I”) that was one of the first things I talk about in the book. Well when I was in Oklahoma there were some very clear EVPs. In fact, I played them (“ON”) during my other interview shows because I have all my other radio interviews — I have transcripts of them in the ‘Radio Interview Transcripts’ portion of the New Testament side of the website at testament.org.
N*: Right.
Q: And — (“CA ANO[T]”) another one of the EVPs was basically telling me that I’m not allowed to take — was not allowed to profit from the book in any way, myself. Basically, all of the profits from the book—should there ever be any—would go to the family in Oklahoma and I did sign a contract to that effect that my attorney worked on for many months — Jonathan Handel. And (“SO”) basically that’s why whenever I see other people working in the spirituality field it just makes me wonder how some of them can make so much money because I’m defi(nitely) — I was definitely not allowed (“TO” “BENE”) to financially benefit from — from this. But — okay, but when — (“OKAY”) very specific, clear EVP such as “SOUNDS GOOD,” “MICKEY MOUSE” — in fact, some of the EVP sounded like my friends’ voices — (“SAYING LIKE”) one word. (“ONE”) And, of course, the Amassing of spirits can use any voice that They want. I mean another one of the books I’ve read since my experience was The Mothman Prophecies (“AA”) by John Keel and that’s something else — (“THAT” “HAS” “CER”) parallels with some of the things that happened — (“TO THE”) the families — (“THAT HAD THE”) the poltergeist phenomena going on. So after hearing these very clear examples — I mean it took me a while. As I transcribed, I gained more experience. In my book I would do it totally different today because I ended up — when you did have the words that were re(peated) — like let’s say someone else will say one word and then someone will say the same word.
N*: Yeah. (Or “YEAH”)
Q: I would edit those out and now I try to put in the sounds — (“AN”) because there are also unattributed sounds too. And in the book I have the symbols. I don’t have them on the Internet because it just seemed too complicated at the time. And I just added a few tape sides (“THAT I”) — put Xs where the unattributed sounds are. But once you are aware of their existence and you really closely listen, you can hear it. In fact, I’ll — (“I’LL”) I taped — (“I WAS”) I taped a little bit of some shows last week on “Coast to Coast AM.” (“AN I”) There was again very prominent EVP. I did — I have called the show in the past and I’ve actually played EVP where people will say — you’ll hear the word “NO” in the middle of a sentence.
N*: Right.
Q: And sometimes it’s very frequently. Sometimes the tone is different. Sometimes the people do it themselves, of course — (“I MEAN”) this is something I’ve become very sensitive to after hearing (“PEOPLE”) — after hearing “NO” in the middle of people’s statements. I would watch speakers. (“AN”) Sometimes, subconsciously or unconsciously people will say “no” in the middle of a sentence and — well I think that they’re getting help basically from the organizing Consciousness of the universe.
N*: Yeah.
Q: And — but definitely in some cases it’s EVP. (“AN”) In other cases, it’s the people doing it themselves. (“OR IT”) I mean it’s hard to tell — tell the difference because I’ve actually had some EVP that sounds exactly like my voice. (“LIKE”) There was — because there’s a — (“YOU KNOW A”) 30 second (actually not that long) radio delay. I was taping my telephone conversation and the broadcast can be heard in the background and there was a word basically on the broadcast that I never said when I was talking into the radio (show) and recording the conversation. So I have — I mean that’s definite proof. And I’ve talked to other (“PEOP”) — other — another expert on EVP, Michael Goodspeed, and he had a similar experience. And, anyway, it’s — so once you’re aware of it — I went back to my old Paramount tapes and I found EVP and unattributed sounds. And then, after becoming aware of their existence I can now even hear them (“ON”) — radio broadcasts and (“I”) I once called up “Coast to Coast AM” and I actually played “NO” EVPs—from some people who had seen a UFO—live on the air. (“WHEN”) What’s his name — Ian Punnett (“WAS”) was the host.
N: Right.
N*: Right.
Q: So (“so” is replaced by “no” on archive tape) I mean (“I”) I think that — and this last week I got some other good samples on my tape recorder. But — so once you’re aware of it, you can hear — you can definitely hear it. And — and also like when you (“HH”) deal with EVP too — I’ve read some of the research of — let’s see, the — what’s his name? Oh — John Lilly, who wrote a book called The Centre of the Cyclone. (“IN”) I believe he’s one of the early researchers into Electronic Voice Phenomena even though he may or may not have been aware of it at the time. But he basically worked with a tape loop and they were getting results (“BY”) playing the same tape loop where they were hearing different words. (“AN”) With EVP — of course, there are a lot of people (“WHO’VE AA”) who are working with EVP now and there does seem to be some kind of psychic element to it because people (“WILL”) really will hear different words. (“FROM”) The same — from the same word — (“WHAT ONE”) person hears clearly in one way, someone else will hear clearly. And I can tell you from my own experience that — like a word — there was one word I couldn’t hear — I couldn’t really make out. So I assigned a certain meaning to it. And then later on I heard it a different way. I think I heard (“IT WAS THE”) the word “VISIT.” And that was when my mom was sick and was in the hospital, basically. It told me to go visit my mom in the hospital and it was a good thing that I did because the nurses were — (“SHE WAS IN”) she was having problems breathing and the nurses weren’t aware of it. (“THEY WERE”) She was there for observation but she really needed to have bronchial treatments. (“SO”) Once you’re aware that this is possible, you’ll hear really good (“E[X]” “YOU’LL” “STRE”) — I mean your mind (“IS”) basically edite(d) — edits it out until you become aware of it. And I have plenty of good evidence. (“AA — AA”) Yeah, I can even play you one — some obvious samples, if you like.
N: Oh sure. Is that something you could — you could line up with the —
Q: Well, okay, I have one here. A very —
N: Can you hold that thought?
Q: Yeah, I’ll hold it.
N: . . . take another quick break?
Q: Okay.
N: And then, sure. I’ll — we’ll do that. We’ll come back in just a few minutes. Is that okay?
Q: Sure. That’s fine.
N: Okay. So I’m going to — I’m going to get you to hold there for a second and when we come back we’ll hear an example of EVP. And . . . very fascinating stuff. And also I’ve gotten some questions for Mark. And we’ll continue the program.
T: Stay . . . (end of tape side) . . . more intelligent radio. You can Email us your questions and comments right now. Send them to icast@nmplive.com. We’ll return to the program after this.
(TRANSCRIBER’S NOTE: A SONG COULD BE HEARD WHILE I WAS ON HOLD ALONG WITH NORMAN’S OCCASIONAL CONVERSATION BUT THIS PORTION OF TAPE IS HARD TO HEAR.)
N: (during break) Okay, I’m coming up now.
T: Now aren’t you glad you didn’t watch that made-for-TV movie? You are listening to “I-Cast,” the intelligent radio broadcast on “NMB Live.” You can Email us your questions and comments right now. Send them to icast@nmblive.com. Once again, your host is Norman Mikeal Berketa.
N: Alright, we’re coming up to the — well the final half hour of the program and actually final 20 — 20 minutes, 21 minutes, whatever. It’s somewhere around there. And my guest, of course, is Mark Russell Bell. And, Mark, you were going to line up a — (“AN” [archive tape])
Q: Well —
N: Yeah, go ahead.
Q: Well I thought I would make — (“I”) here’s a — here’s a, like, a one line from — from one — (“AA”) an Art Bell broadcast from, I don’t know, maybe a month or so ago.
N*: Okay.
Q: Basically, he’s saying, ” . . . coming up in a moment Richard C. Hoagland’s update.” And then there’s a pause and he says, “See if you can” — (“WELL”) during that pause, you can hear the word — you can hear a word. And let’s see if you can tell me what word you hear.
N: (O)kay.
Q: Because this seemed (“LIKE” “COU[LD] BE”) to be a very clear example. So let me play that. Let me make sure my tape recorder’s loud enough. I hope it’s loud enough.
A: (clip) . . . coming up in a moment Richard C. Hoagland’s update. Uh (“RAPE”) see if you can . . .”
A: (clip) . . . coming up in a moment Richard C. Hoagland’s update. Uh (“RAPE”) see if you can . . .”
A: (clip) . . . coming up in a moment Richard C. Hoagland’s update. Uh (“RAPE”) . . .”
Q: So what word does that sound like to you?
N: Ohhh I don’t know but it was — it was — it was a bit loud, a bit — a bit tinny. I couldn’t make it out.
Q: Yeah. Okay.
N*: It sounded like —
N: It sounded like — was it “WRIT” or something?
N*: Was that close?
Q: It sounded like — well I use a Dictaphone Voice Processor —
N: Okay.
Q: — which — and unfortunately that’s (“WHAT I DON’T”) — that’s why I don’t really like playing a lot of EVP over the phone —
N*: Yeah.
Q: — because I’m using like a Pearlcorder (S701), Olympus, and it just doesn’t give you (“THE” “GG”) a very good quality. It’s not very clear.
N*: Yeah.
Q: When I use the Dictaphone Voice Processor with the earphones — (“IT’S”) probably the best way to listen to it and plus you can adjust the speed sometimes. But it sounds like a very clear — the word “RAPE.” R — A — P — E. And —
N: Okay. See, I heard something like that. It (or “IT”) — I — I thought it said —
Q: Well I’ll play it one more time.
N: — ‘RE’ — ‘READ’ or something. (“YEAH” [telephone tape]) So I was close.
Q: Okay, I’ll play it one more time and see — (“AN”)
N: Alright.
A: (clip) . . . coming up in a moment Richard C. Hoagland’s update. Uh (“RAPE”) . . . ”
N: Yeah. Now —
A: (clip) . . . (com)ing up in a moment Richard C. Hoagland’s update. Uh (“RAPE”) . . . ”
N: Okay. (or “OKAY” “YOU KNOW”)
Q: And I really — and I do think that different people hear different words.
N*: Yeah.
Q: Because it’s just something that you (“YOU KE”) — I mean people don’t always hear the same words and there really does seem to be something telepathic going on here as well. (“D”)
N: Do you have any samples of your — any EVPs on your website, by any chance?
Q: I don’t. And I can ex(plain) — I’ll explain what happened. Basically, I had just spent (“MY”) my life savings publishing the book and getting the website up as it is. And I just really do not have the funds to do much more at this time.
N*: Right.
Q: I had been working — basically, (“I”) I had decided not to work in Hollywood. And then I further decided—after a (“AA”) number of experiences—not to work in any company that had shareholders. And that’s one of the things that I’ve talked about on the radio before is that — (“YOU KNOW”) the evils of corporate thinking. (“WHEN”) People work for a company or corporation, they’ll do things to other people — for example, I remember my — when I (“SOMEONE HIT”) hit my car, (“THE”) insurance company never paid me. And people involved I’m sure did this, thinking, “Well we’re doing this for our company. We’re not — we’re not — we’re not cheating him personally. It’s nothing personal. It’s just the way we do business here at Twentieth Century.” Or whatever. (“AN”) I mean it’s — (“I — I — I”) it really is (“I MEAN”) the corporate system is an evil principality of our time. And people really aren’t even aware of it. That’s one of the things that I — (“THAT”) I’m a member of a journalism newsgroup and I think one of the recent Emails that came in (“WAS”) about this website called http://www.thememoryhole.org and there was an article (“THE” [telephone tape]/”THEY” [archive tape]) entitled “The CIA Commits Over 100,000 Serious Crimes Per Year.” It said it was from The Intelligence Community In The 21st Century by the Permanent Select Committee of Intelligence, U.S. House of Representatives, 1996. And I think if anything tells you what’s happening in the world right now it’s (“IT’S” [telephone tape]/”IT” [archive tape]) those kinds of statistics. Or maybe the fact that 80 cents of every American tax dollar goes to the military — (“TO THE” “THE”) the people with guns basically at some point took control of our government. And it’s just — I mean, again, people are doing this for their own presti(ge) — (“I MEAN”) people are just taking for themselves instead of really (“LOOKING”) looking — following the wisdom traditions of all the different nations. Because they all really say the same things. It’s just that people don’t take responsibility for their reactions and it’s just a matter of time before things — (“I MEAN”) if we would only spend as much money on the environment as we do on the military, we’d be doing the planet (“AA” “AA”) a lot better service than what we’re doing now. Anyway, there are radio shows that deal a lot with those issues. And I listen — I listen to them here in L.A. and (“SOME”) some people — there are disinformation agents out there who (“YOU KNOW”) working for the Rockefellers or whoever, I mean they are serving (“THE”) the interests of the billionaires and not for you and me.
N: But you’re — again, you’re — you’re sort of talking about the — you mentioned shareholders.
Q: Yeah.
N*: These are —
N: These are specifically — (“GI”) like you said, companies that are — that are doing things because they have to please the shareholders and not necessarily the clients or the consumers or the suppliers or anything like that.
Q: That’s right. In fact, there was a very detailed article about the psychology of the corporations. (“AND”) One of the — the — the new — the most recent tape sides that I — because I do invol(ve) — I do have articles from other sources at the end of some of the tapes. So I did include a long — (“YOU KNOW A”) investigation of corporations.
N*: Um-huh.
Q: And (“I MEAN”) that’s — the whole (“WORLD”) — the military industrial complex is — turns because people in positions of authority can make money for themselves. They can benefit from military expenditures and what-have-you. Nobody benefits themselves immediately (“FROM”) from anything having to do with cleaning up the environment. I mean we’ve lost (“YEAH”) two-thirds of the foliage cover for our planet in the last couple decades. And this isn’t in the corporate interest so you’re not going to hear about it on (“THE”) channel — the eight o’clock news. (“THAT’S ALL”) And that’s because no one is taking responsibility. (“I”) An(d) so anyway (“SO”) then — then there are people like me who come along and recently (“THERE”) there have been a lot of us who have evidence of reincarnation. I don’t know if you’ve heard any others but I — (“I” “LI[KE]”) I went to a lecture recently (“WITH”) by William Barnes and Walter Semkiw. Now Walter looks exactly like John Adams. And William Barnes thinks he’s the reincarnation of Thomas Andrews, who was the designer of the Titantic.
N: Right. Right. Okay.
Q: I think he’s working for the Titanic of today which is an aerospace company. I mean that isn’t his real name. It’s a pseudonym — (“IS”) William Barnes but there are a number of other individuals who (“I AA” “IDA” “HOW”) are quite prominent. For example, one of them is an Indianapolis Police Homicide captain named Robert Snow and he’s (“THE”) — he wrote a book about his previous incarnation as Carroll Beckwith, an artist. Then there was Jeffrey Keene who wrote a book. He apparently is the reincarnation of a brigadier general, John Gordon, in the Civil War. Let’s see — who else? Anyway, (“SO THE”) there’s (“BEEN A LO[T]”) — there’s a lot of (“INDIAN”) —
(TRANSCRIBER’S NOTE: ANOTHER AUTHOR WHO DISCUSSES HER PREVIOUS INCARNATION IS SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA’S BETTYE BINDER, A PAST LIFE REGRESSIONIST WHO DIDN’T BELIEVE IN REINCARNATION UNTIL EXPERIENCING MEMORIES FROM A PREVIOUS LIFE WHEN SHE WAS AN AMERICAN INDIAN WOMAN.)
Q: — good works about reincarnation out there. And (“WHEN”) I know when Walter gave his presentation here at The Learning Center back in February, I went and, of course, I gave them copies of my book. And — oh, by the way, William Barnes and his wife told me that their publishing company (“OR”), you know, who had did his audio book —
N*: Right.
Q: — had to pay $5,000 to get him on “Coast to Coast AM.” (“SO”) If that doesn’t tell you about why certain people get on that show and others don’t, then I don’t think anything will.
N*: (small laugh)
Q: I mean, again, that’s the corporate mentality: (“IS”) —
N*: Yeah.
Q: — “Let’s plug our newsletter”; or “Let’s sell more commercials”; “Let’s get people to go to the website.” Instead of just giving out an Email or website address — “Let’s make people go to our website (“BEFORE”) and link to it so we can sell — we can get more advertising revenue.” I mean that show is the biggest victim of the military industrial complex that I’ve ever heard and it professes to be about the paranormal and spiritual. Then why haven’t I been on? Anyway —
N: (small laugh)
Q: — (“ENOU”) enough sour grapes there. (“HILLY”)
N: (small laugh) (“LI[FE]”) That’s a whole other conversation.
Q: Exactly.
N*: Yeah.
Q: Exactly.
N: Listen, before we run out of time, I want to — I want to talk — I want to ask you something.
Q: Okay.
N: I — I did a little bit of research on the Internet about this because I was (“A” “I WAS”) interested in seeing what it had to say but I didn’t find out much. But we’ve had — we’ve had a — an interesting thing happen here where we’ve had glass explode.
Q: Well I once had glass explode in my life. And that was when I was living in Echo Park I decided — (“AA”) rent control apartment right on the beach in Santa Monica became available and I decided — I’ve always wanted to live by the beach — I decided to take it. Well my — my condo was less than $100,000. I thought I would sell it instantly and it didn’t sell. Well I remember I was — I was getting the place ready. I was upset about something and I was cussing at Mighael. And well I had — I had these large neon lights in the kitchen securely fastened. Never had any problems with them. Well one of them fell and exploded right next to me. (“AN I”) And I — of course, I mean I knew it was a symptom. I’ve had other similar symptoms too when I’ve had a bad attitude. (“AN”) In fact, sometimes (“WH[EN] I’M”) when I’m upset or discouraged, I’ll see a little (“T”) T-shirt (“WW”) that someone’s wearing that says ‘That’s a bad attitude’ or something. (“I MEAN” “YOU KNOW”) That’s how much help that I — I get. (“I ALSO”) I also would say (“KEEP OUT”) keep your eyes open for bumper stickers because that’s something else that I’ve seen — I’ve seen a lot of. But um I —
N: You mean as signs?
Q: Yes.
N: Yeah.
Q: As signs.
N: What happened with us, just to — just to take you back was —
Q: Okay.
N: I guess it was about a month ago or so. Actually, it was — it was around the time or shortly after I had interviewed Lizette Larkins on the program. And she had written a book called Talking To Extraterrestrials. And I don’t know — some — some strange things happened like as soon as the interview was over my computer crashed, which she had said that she had done five interviews since and the same thing had happened to every one of the interviewers. But anyway —
Q: Well (“DIDN’T SAY”) it all (“B”) comes down to —
N: Yeah.
Q: — the individual. (“I MEAN”) I personally find her not to be a very credible person simply because she’d worked with — she’d worked as a personal assistant to the author of Conversations With God. And if you look at all the wisdom traditions, it’s always the Satan spirit or the malevolent spirit that is pretending to be — to speak in one voice as God. And so I think that this book (“WAS”) was the pits. I know when I tried to market my book — I mean I didn’t get anywhere. He obviously found a publisher. And I think his book is far more unlikely than mine — I mean I could not have made my book up. (“I DON’T KNOW”) I don’t know if he did (“MAKE THE”) give the same evidence that I can in my book. He has a bestseller. He tells people that you can chant “I like money” three times — well that’s what people want to hear so I mean it’s obvious that that’s why he has the bestseller. My book is available (“FREE OF”) free of charge on the Internet and it says — it doesn’t say anything about taking for one’s self and that’s why I’ve been having a — I’ve had a big problem getting any kind of media attention. Because, again, that’s not going to help their advertisers. That’s not going to help the people in positions of authority—such as the Rockefellers—who own the media. (“ANYWAY”) That’s — that’s why the planet is where it is right now. Again, (“IN”) until there’s a heightened state of consciousness for everyone, we’re not — (“THE”) the Earth is not going to progress. (“YEAH”)
N*: And — and you said —
Q: And the alien metaphor can be very useful — I — I’ve — I interviewed people who’ve had — (“THE”) have experienced aliens and angels and some of them are very convincing but I remember when I listened to Lizette’s (“IN”) interview on another show and it sounded to me just like a compendium of other people’s experiences. I mean I just didn’t — there wasn’t really anything that I heard that made me think that this was based on anything other than just making money for herself. I mean she was working at a book publishing company — the book publishing company that published her book. I mean sure, you can make a — you could say, “Well God led her to become the assis(tant) — (“YOU KNOW THE”) someone who’s had alien experiences to work for someone who had this ‘conversations with God’ experience but I don’t know. I mean (“IT JUST” “IT JUST DIDN’T” “SALAD”) it sounded like a way to make money to me. (“GETTING BACK”)
N: Getting — getting back to my —
Q: Yeah.
N*: — glass —
N: — experience, though. This is — this was — this was — and this is what I really want — want your opinion on.
Q: Okay.
N: Because what she suggested was that I possibly, you know (or “YOU KNOW”), opened up — how do I say this? You know — just sort of opened up by talking about these things, by inviting these kind of ideas, that I maybe opened myself up to some extra energy or the energy I’ve t(apped) — I’ve tapped into, let’s say, some existing energy. And this was an ordinary drinking glass — you know a heavy — kind of heavy glass at the bottom and then it gets lighter as you go up — the glass.
Q: Um-huh.
N: And the thing was (“WE” “I”) I think my wife had two of them in her hands. We were just putting them away and literally one of them just shattered as if — as if it had been struck by a hammer, hit by a bullet. It didn’t just crack. It shattered like I’ve never seen it before. Well we were both stunned — I mean just standing there looking at this was absolutely unbelievable. And then about two or three weeks later — and by the way that’s the first time I’ve ever seen that in my entire 39 years. Three weeks later, we’re — we’re at her parents for Thanksgiving, Canadian Thanksgiving. And, gosh, if it doesn’t happen again. Another — I take a glass. I put it into the strainer. I take another one and put it aside. And the first one goes ka-boom. Very odd.
Q: Well in terms of the timing —
N: Yeah.
Q: — can you be more specific as to what was being discussed or what you were feeling right at the time when the glass exploded? (“I”)
N: Okay, I think — I’m just trying to get my — I think the very first time we weren’t actually talking. We were just kind of putting stuff away. There was no animosity. There was no tension really. We were just, y(ou k)now (or no), doing household chores. And then, of course, at Thanksgiving we were all there. The mood was light. There wasn’t really any — anything I can think of out of the ordinary. No.
Q: Were you eating turkey?
N: Yeah. Well at — at — we were at the — the Thanksgiving. Yeah.
Q: Right. Well that’s one of the — (“LET’S”) that’s one of the messages that I received (“WAS”) — well not only as you have these messages about becoming a vegan, (“WHEN YOU”) when you learn about what’s happening — (“WITH”) there are spiritual reasons for not eating meat. And in fact I — I have listed spiritual advice at the website and there are specific things that happened to me that led me to post these — the spiritual advice. “Meat is murder” is one of the spiritual advice that I have there on the list. Another one is “Love is the only true religion.” And, again, Mighael is associate(d) — the Angel Michael is associated with the commandments. And what happened to me is my television once went — turned itself on. I guess it was a TV commercial. (“AND THE”) The line was “Love is the only religion.” I guess it was a perfume company or something. And then it clicked off. Well I received the same message in other ways too. And I was receiving other messages. (“YEAH”) I once even — one of my spiritual messages is “An eye for an eye,” which basically is often misinterpreted to mean something other than the punishment should fit the crime. (“BUT”) Basically, what happened to me is I ha(d) — (“AFTER”) having this idea, an ant bit me below an eye. And (“THIS” “HAPPENED”) both before and after I had the thought. (“BECAUSE”) The first time it had happened to me was like a day before. And I just — (“YOU KNOW”) you forget about it — “What a freaky thing that is.” And then (“IT”) when it happened again after — I was listening to a radio program about capital punishment or crime. I think at the time it was Hilly Rose who was the — was the host of the show. And I had the strange, unusual experience with the ants. Well, anyway, I’ve had a number of other commandment experiences and, again, if you look at history, there are various individuals that the Force will choose to give messages at various times to help (“OTHER”) — to help expand the consciousness of others. I remember there are many different song lyrics where you hear “Give back to the world as much as you take,” one of them (“WAS”) “Circle of Life” — (“IN”) “The Lion King.” And, in fact, (“O[NE]”) — in my — in my transcripts (“I”) I have one of these songs. I can’t remember which one it was but I was just taping (“A[T]”) whatever came on the radio and it was — it had “Shouldn’t have taken more than you gave” or something. So I’ve been getting these different spiritual (advice) — I used to call them “commandments” but no one really takes the word “commandments” seriously. So I just call it — I have a section on the New Testament side that says Spiritual Advice. And (“I” “I”) “Trash your television” is a good one, let me tell you.
N: (small laugh) Mark, you know what, on that note, it’s — it’s — it’s just about time for twelve. I’ve got a bit of housecleaning to do.
Q: Okay.
N: Our time is up. (“AA”) So your — your website if people are interested in going to it is triple-W testament.org.
Q: Right and you don’t necessarily need the www but (“YEAH”) testament.org and there are photos and all kinds of things. (“N” “YOU CAN”) There’s also a space on the home page where people can send me an Email. If they have any questions, (“I’D”) I enjoy answering them.
N: Wonderful. Okay, listen, when I — when I finish the book, I will get back to you.
Q: Okay.
N: I’ll be in touch with you by Email.
Q: Thank you very much.
N: Thank you for joining us tonight, Mark.
Q: Thank you.
( . . . )
Q: (speaking into tape recorder) So my immediate reaction after the interview is that I didn’t really mean to get bitchy. If you could see the little notes I have in front of me, in parentheses I put “kindness.” Well I deserve the “bitch” bumper stickers. But I, as I’ve said before — someone has to do it. I’m trying to think what else I should have said.
( . . . )
Q: (sighs) So I guess I should apologize to everyone I named and judged. I certainly don’t mean to be a protagonist — or I should say antagonist or enemy to anyone. So I’m sorry, God and Mighael. I wasn’t kind. I’m not smart enough (to) be like the sages and all those Eastern spiritual anecdotes. I’m too emotional. Anyway, I don’t know enough really about any one person to judge them. I just have a very superficial knowledge of them. Yet some of them have achieved celebrity and renown so they make easy metaphors for what I’m trying to get across and to communicate. Anyway, I guess some other anecdotes are in order. If I end up attacking the spiritual community, it’s because my impression is that it’s been manipulated by various people for their own self-interest for economic reasons. I might add that regarding the Report From Iron Mountain, I’ve researched this on the Internet and I read that the author or the editor said it was a hoax; that only he was responsible in an article in some magazine. Other Web pages talk about Doctorow and other people who participated in the “satire.” Well how can I put it? At least one page said that it doesn’t matter what it was, you see all of the things in the report active in our society today. What does that mean? That some asshole in the government found the report and — anyway, who knows? But in A Search For The Truth by Ruth Montgomery [commercial author], she talks about her marriage. Her husband didn’t seem to really be very supportive of her spiritual work. In one of her early experiences on page nine in the book was when a medium channeled Ruth’s father who told her “Stop going on all those trips all over everywhere and stay at home more with Bob. It isn’t good to leave Bob all the time. Your marriage is the important thing.” She traveled for what she called “reportorial trips” and a little while after this message Big Chief White Mountain visited, a spirit who claimed to be her personal protector: “Me B — I — G Chief. Me heap big chief.” Anyway, spirit can result — I mean the more outlandish it is, the more it gets our attention when it happens to us. It might sound horrendous to others. Long before I went to Oklahoma, I’d read The Gods of Eden by William Bramley. And what really struck me was Chapter 40: “The Nature of a Supreme Being.”
N*: Yes.
Q: — but basically manifests around certain people as a metaphor for others.
N*: Yeah.
Q: And that’s why you have people like Sai Baba—I might even add Tiger Woods—who (or “WHO”) are able (“TT”) — and myself for that matter (“WE[LL]”) because there’s constantly pennies around me. (“IT’S”) It’s not us doing it (“TO”) — if we — (“IF YOU”) we can’t tell you how we’re doing it, we’re not doing it. (“BUT SOME”) Someone else is.
N*: Yeah.
Q: And you said you had some things happening there and I’d be glad to tell you my interpretation of them.
N*: Sure.
N: Yeah. (“BB”) Before I — I do that, though, I want to sort of — what you just said (“WHEN” [telephone tape]) when you were in the car and I think this was early on in your — your visit in Oklahoma when they were talking about the graveyard. And you said, “Well I want to go there tonight.” (“AN I”) And wh(en) — you were driving in the car and, of course, you started to hear the (or “THE”) — the (or “THE”) — the voice in the back.
Q: Right.
N*: And I —
N: Think at that point she had said to you, ‘Boy, that’s unusual. It’s (“RICHER” or “RICHAR[D]”) doing things — it’s — it’s doing things for you it doesn’t usually do for most people. It has to get to know them first.’ So there was obviously a connection there from the beginning, wasn’t there, with you?
Q: Well the Christ Consciousness, I’m sure, is on intimate terms with every single one of us. I mean animals and people. And in my case things that happened to me — for example, I would wake in the middle of the night as if someone had just grabbed my leg. And I just said, “Oh that was a muscle contortion.” (“I MEAN”) It felt like someone had just grabbed my leg. Well after I came back from Oklahoma and felt the same thing, I said, “Michael, stop that.” (“O” “YOU KNOW”) What el(se) — I mean I (“IT WAS ABLE TO”) — I understood exactly what was going on. There was another occasion when my mother had called me and was — I don’t know. She was chewing me out for something or — anyway, I put the phone down for a while. (“AN”) When I came back, she was still talking. And I said, (“WELL I”) you know, ‘I showed you. I walked away from the phone and came back.’ And she said, (“I — I”) ‘No, you didn’t because I heard you breathing.’
N: Oh my goodness. (small laugh)
Q: Anyway — well exactly. (“SO” [telephone tape]/”GO” [archive tape]) (“AN AA UH”) There were other things too like once I remember when I was having computer problems I called up IBM and, of course, the one who was helping me at the time was named Mohammed. While I was taping the call for my documentary — and I had very firmly put the phone down with the tape recorder going upstairs onto the chair so it would not fall. And I went downstairs to my computer with — (“YOU KNOW ON”) on my portable phone to do whatever he instructed. Well as I’m downstairs I hear the phone (“HIT THE”) hit the floor (“YOU KNOW”) loudly enough. (“I MEAN YOU KNOW” “I MEAN LIL”) Just little things like that constantly happening and, of course, with the EVP and the spirit messages there were all kinds of thing — things going on. I mean there was — there was once even when I heard “YOUUUUUU, MEEEEEE, OHHHHHH.” I mean (“YOU KNOW”) there was (“I[T]”) — there was like a definite sexual ingredient. In fact, (“WHEN I WAS”) when I — I was asking the family — I was saying — (“NOW THE” “THIS”) one of the sisters was named Brenda and she was gay. So I was saying, (“ONE”) ‘(It) would be interesting to get the poltergeist’s thoughts about somebody being gay.’ (“WELL”) As I was playing back this tape, the Entity said, “(IT’S) YOU AND ME.” And all of a sudden I had this huge erection that I mean I haven’t experienced anything like (“SINCE”) — I’d say when I was maybe 18. (“I MEAN”) So, basically, the Entity was showing me something — (“ONE”) another one of Their tricks. Basically. I mean it wasn’t — I didn’t feel (“MM”) menaced in any way. Another thing happened when I was — (“I’M ALSO”) I also had the feeling (“LIKE”) I turned on the radio and somebody was talking about saving somebody from choking on something. I mean so basically — I basically was communicated through what I experienced that the Force physically is responsible with you for every single bodily function. (“I MEAN IT’S”) It’s an Energy, basically, that’s around all of us — the organizing Force (“OF”) of the universe and the reason why people don’t all go to the same restaurant; (“AN” “YOU KNOW” “AA WA”) who wakes us up in the morning (“AN[D WHEN] WE GO TO”) — puts us to sleep at night. Or doesn’t — depending on if we’ve been very good or very bad. And (“ONE OF THE” “I MEAN”) I’ve always felt nothing but love — well a few times (“I’VE”) I’ve been in trouble but I’ve (“NO”) normally felt a lot of love. (“LIKE I”) For example, I remember waking up early one morning when it was still dark, which was very unusual for me at the time. And I picked up a poetry book and it said — the first thing I read was “Good morning, darling.” I mean you know. (“I MEAN”) So I mean (“THERE WERE SOME”) there were some bad times. Like the first time when I tried to edit out (“SOME” “SOME OF THE”) the story. I was going to — I rewound the tape and was going to tape over a portion about seeing a character in a porno magazine (“THAT LOOKED”) like me — porno cartoon that looked like me.
N*: (small laugh)
Q: Anyway, this tape was destroyed by the Entity and I got the message that I’m not allowed to do that. (“GG” “I MEAN”) Basically, honesty really is important. So (or “SO”) — so, anyway —
N: These EVPs now — I’m — I’m — I’m — I’m awfully curious about this. How — have you always been able to hear them? Are they — how audible are they? Or do you have any kind of special equipment that you can hear these on?
Q: Well let me (“TELL”) — let me explain that because it’s ver(y) — I mean this is fascinating in itself.
N*: Yeah.
Q: I had never heard of — of course, I didn’t even know — when I published Testament they’re not called EVP. I just put down “spirit messages” and I knew it was going to be a very big problem because (“I”) I had never heard of such a thing at the time. (“AND I DIDN’T”) I didn’t know if anyone would believe it but I had (“TO” “I”) — this is what I was experiencing. I had to tell the truth. So (“I”) that was one of the first things I talk about in the book. Well when I was in Oklahoma there were some very clear EVPs. In fact, I played them (“ON”) during my other interview shows because I have all my other radio interviews — I have transcripts of them in the ‘Radio Interview Transcripts’ portion of the New Testament side of the website at testament.org.
N*: Right.
Q: And — (“CA ANO[T]”) another one of the EVPs was basically telling me that I’m not allowed to take — was not allowed to profit from the book in any way, myself. Basically, all of the profits from the book—should there ever be any—would go to the family in Oklahoma and I did sign a contract to that effect that my attorney worked on for many months — Jonathan Handel. And (“SO”) basically that’s why whenever I see other people working in the spirituality field it just makes me wonder how some of them can make so much money because I’m defi(nitely) — I was definitely not allowed (“TO” “BENE”) to financially benefit from — from this. But — okay, but when — (“OKAY”) very specific, clear EVP such as “SOUNDS GOOD,” “MICKEY MOUSE” — in fact, some of the EVP sounded like my friends’ voices — (“SAYING LIKE”) one word. (“ONE”) And, of course, the Amassing of spirits can use any voice that They want. I mean another one of the books I’ve read since my experience was The Mothman Prophecies (“AA”) by John Keel and that’s something else — (“THAT” “HAS” “CER”) parallels with some of the things that happened — (“TO THE”) the families — (“THAT HAD THE”) the poltergeist phenomena going on. So after hearing these very clear examples — I mean it took me a while. As I transcribed, I gained more experience. In my book I would do it totally different today because I ended up — when you did have the words that were re(peated) — like let’s say someone else will say one word and then someone will say the same word.
N*: Yeah. (Or “YEAH”)
Q: I would edit those out and now I try to put in the sounds — (“AN”) because there are also unattributed sounds too. And in the book I have the symbols. I don’t have them on the Internet because it just seemed too complicated at the time. And I just added a few tape sides (“THAT I”) — put Xs where the unattributed sounds are. But once you are aware of their existence and you really closely listen, you can hear it. In fact, I’ll — (“I’LL”) I taped — (“I WAS”) I taped a little bit of some shows last week on “Coast to Coast AM.” (“AN I”) There was again very prominent EVP. I did — I have called the show in the past and I’ve actually played EVP where people will say — you’ll hear the word “NO” in the middle of a sentence.
N*: Right.
Q: And sometimes it’s very frequently. Sometimes the tone is different. Sometimes the people do it themselves, of course — (“I MEAN”) this is something I’ve become very sensitive to after hearing (“PEOPLE”) — after hearing “NO” in the middle of people’s statements. I would watch speakers. (“AN”) Sometimes, subconsciously or unconsciously people will say “no” in the middle of a sentence and — well I think that they’re getting help basically from the organizing Consciousness of the universe.
N*: Yeah.
Q: And — but definitely in some cases it’s EVP. (“AN”) In other cases, it’s the people doing it themselves. (“OR IT”) I mean it’s hard to tell — tell the difference because I’ve actually had some EVP that sounds exactly like my voice. (“LIKE”) There was — because there’s a — (“YOU KNOW A”) 30 second (actually not that long) radio delay. I was taping my telephone conversation and the broadcast can be heard in the background and there was a word basically on the broadcast that I never said when I was talking into the radio (show) and recording the conversation. So I have — I mean that’s definite proof. And I’ve talked to other (“PEOP”) — other — another expert on EVP, Michael Goodspeed, and he had a similar experience. And, anyway, it’s — so once you’re aware of it — I went back to my old Paramount tapes and I found EVP and unattributed sounds. And then, after becoming aware of their existence I can now even hear them (“ON”) — radio broadcasts and (“I”) I once called up “Coast to Coast AM” and I actually played “NO” EVPs—from some people who had seen a UFO—live on the air. (“WHEN”) What’s his name — Ian Punnett (“WAS”) was the host.
N: Right.
N*: Right.
Q: So (“so” is replaced by “no” on archive tape) I mean (“I”) I think that — and this last week I got some other good samples on my tape recorder. But — so once you’re aware of it, you can hear — you can definitely hear it. And — and also like when you (“HH”) deal with EVP too — I’ve read some of the research of — let’s see, the — what’s his name? Oh — John Lilly, who wrote a book called The Centre of the Cyclone. (“IN”) I believe he’s one of the early researchers into Electronic Voice Phenomena even though he may or may not have been aware of it at the time. But he basically worked with a tape loop and they were getting results (“BY”) playing the same tape loop where they were hearing different words. (“AN”) With EVP — of course, there are a lot of people (“WHO’VE AA”) who are working with EVP now and there does seem to be some kind of psychic element to it because people (“WILL”) really will hear different words. (“FROM”) The same — from the same word — (“WHAT ONE”) person hears clearly in one way, someone else will hear clearly. And I can tell you from my own experience that — like a word — there was one word I couldn’t hear — I couldn’t really make out. So I assigned a certain meaning to it. And then later on I heard it a different way. I think I heard (“IT WAS THE”) the word “VISIT.” And that was when my mom was sick and was in the hospital, basically. It told me to go visit my mom in the hospital and it was a good thing that I did because the nurses were — (“SHE WAS IN”) she was having problems breathing and the nurses weren’t aware of it. (“THEY WERE”) She was there for observation but she really needed to have bronchial treatments. (“SO”) Once you’re aware that this is possible, you’ll hear really good (“E[X]” “YOU’LL” “STRE”) — I mean your mind (“IS”) basically edite(d) — edits it out until you become aware of it. And I have plenty of good evidence. (“AA — AA”) Yeah, I can even play you one — some obvious samples, if you like.
N: Oh sure. Is that something you could — you could line up with the —
Q: Well, okay, I have one here. A very —
N: Can you hold that thought?
Q: Yeah, I’ll hold it.
N: . . . take another quick break?
Q: Okay.
N: And then, sure. I’ll — we’ll do that. We’ll come back in just a few minutes. Is that okay?
Q: Sure. That’s fine.
N: Okay. So I’m going to — I’m going to get you to hold there for a second and when we come back we’ll hear an example of EVP. And . . . very fascinating stuff. And also I’ve gotten some questions for Mark. And we’ll continue the program.
T: Stay . . . (end of tape side) . . . more intelligent radio. You can Email us your questions and comments right now. Send them to icast@nmplive.com. We’ll return to the program after this.
(TRANSCRIBER’S NOTE: A SONG COULD BE HEARD WHILE I WAS ON HOLD ALONG WITH NORMAN’S OCCASIONAL CONVERSATION BUT THIS PORTION OF TAPE IS HARD TO HEAR.)
N: (during break) Okay, I’m coming up now.
T: Now aren’t you glad you didn’t watch that made-for-TV movie? You are listening to “I-Cast,” the intelligent radio broadcast on “NMB Live.” You can Email us your questions and comments right now. Send them to icast@nmblive.com. Once again, your host is Norman Mikeal Berketa.
N: Alright, we’re coming up to the — well the final half hour of the program and actually final 20 — 20 minutes, 21 minutes, whatever. It’s somewhere around there. And my guest, of course, is Mark Russell Bell. And, Mark, you were going to line up a — (“AN” [archive tape])
Q: Well —
N: Yeah, go ahead.
Q: Well I thought I would make — (“I”) here’s a — here’s a, like, a one line from — from one — (“AA”) an Art Bell broadcast from, I don’t know, maybe a month or so ago.
N*: Okay.
Q: Basically, he’s saying, ” . . . coming up in a moment Richard C. Hoagland’s update.” And then there’s a pause and he says, “See if you can” — (“WELL”) during that pause, you can hear the word — you can hear a word. And let’s see if you can tell me what word you hear.
N: (O)kay.
Q: Because this seemed (“LIKE” “COU[LD] BE”) to be a very clear example. So let me play that. Let me make sure my tape recorder’s loud enough. I hope it’s loud enough.
A: (clip) . . . coming up in a moment Richard C. Hoagland’s update. Uh (“RAPE”) see if you can . . .”
A: (clip) . . . coming up in a moment Richard C. Hoagland’s update. Uh (“RAPE”) see if you can . . .”
A: (clip) . . . coming up in a moment Richard C. Hoagland’s update. Uh (“RAPE”) . . .”
Q: So what word does that sound like to you?
N: Ohhh I don’t know but it was — it was — it was a bit loud, a bit — a bit tinny. I couldn’t make it out.
Q: Yeah. Okay.
N*: It sounded like —
N: It sounded like — was it “WRIT” or something?
N*: Was that close?
Q: It sounded like — well I use a Dictaphone Voice Processor —
N: Okay.
Q: — which — and unfortunately that’s (“WHAT I DON’T”) — that’s why I don’t really like playing a lot of EVP over the phone —
N*: Yeah.
Q: — because I’m using like a Pearlcorder (S701), Olympus, and it just doesn’t give you (“THE” “GG”) a very good quality. It’s not very clear.
N*: Yeah.
Q: When I use the Dictaphone Voice Processor with the earphones — (“IT’S”) probably the best way to listen to it and plus you can adjust the speed sometimes. But it sounds like a very clear — the word “RAPE.” R — A — P — E. And —
N: Okay. See, I heard something like that. It (or “IT”) — I — I thought it said —
Q: Well I’ll play it one more time.
N: — ‘RE’ — ‘READ’ or something. (“YEAH” [telephone tape]) So I was close.
Q: Okay, I’ll play it one more time and see — (“AN”)
N: Alright.
A: (clip) . . . coming up in a moment Richard C. Hoagland’s update. Uh (“RAPE”) . . . ”
N: Yeah. Now —
A: (clip) . . . (com)ing up in a moment Richard C. Hoagland’s update. Uh (“RAPE”) . . . ”
N: Okay. (or “OKAY” “YOU KNOW”)
Q: And I really — and I do think that different people hear different words.
N*: Yeah.
Q: Because it’s just something that you (“YOU KE”) — I mean people don’t always hear the same words and there really does seem to be something telepathic going on here as well. (“D”)
N: Do you have any samples of your — any EVPs on your website, by any chance?
Q: I don’t. And I can ex(plain) — I’ll explain what happened. Basically, I had just spent (“MY”) my life savings publishing the book and getting the website up as it is. And I just really do not have the funds to do much more at this time.
N*: Right.
Q: I had been working — basically, (“I”) I had decided not to work in Hollywood. And then I further decided—after a (“AA”) number of experiences—not to work in any company that had shareholders. And that’s one of the things that I’ve talked about on the radio before is that — (“YOU KNOW”) the evils of corporate thinking. (“WHEN”) People work for a company or corporation, they’ll do things to other people — for example, I remember my — when I (“SOMEONE HIT”) hit my car, (“THE”) insurance company never paid me. And people involved I’m sure did this, thinking, “Well we’re doing this for our company. We’re not — we’re not — we’re not cheating him personally. It’s nothing personal. It’s just the way we do business here at Twentieth Century.” Or whatever. (“AN”) I mean it’s — (“I — I — I”) it really is (“I MEAN”) the corporate system is an evil principality of our time. And people really aren’t even aware of it. That’s one of the things that I — (“THAT”) I’m a member of a journalism newsgroup and I think one of the recent Emails that came in (“WAS”) about this website called http://www.thememoryhole.org and there was an article (“THE” [telephone tape]/”THEY” [archive tape]) entitled “The CIA Commits Over 100,000 Serious Crimes Per Year.” It said it was from The Intelligence Community In The 21st Century by the Permanent Select Committee of Intelligence, U.S. House of Representatives, 1996. And I think if anything tells you what’s happening in the world right now it’s (“IT’S” [telephone tape]/”IT” [archive tape]) those kinds of statistics. Or maybe the fact that 80 cents of every American tax dollar goes to the military — (“TO THE” “THE”) the people with guns basically at some point took control of our government. And it’s just — I mean, again, people are doing this for their own presti(ge) — (“I MEAN”) people are just taking for themselves instead of really (“LOOKING”) looking — following the wisdom traditions of all the different nations. Because they all really say the same things. It’s just that people don’t take responsibility for their reactions and it’s just a matter of time before things — (“I MEAN”) if we would only spend as much money on the environment as we do on the military, we’d be doing the planet (“AA” “AA”) a lot better service than what we’re doing now. Anyway, there are radio shows that deal a lot with those issues. And I listen — I listen to them here in L.A. and (“SOME”) some people — there are disinformation agents out there who (“YOU KNOW”) working for the Rockefellers or whoever, I mean they are serving (“THE”) the interests of the billionaires and not for you and me.
N: But you’re — again, you’re — you’re sort of talking about the — you mentioned shareholders.
Q: Yeah.
N*: These are —
N: These are specifically — (“GI”) like you said, companies that are — that are doing things because they have to please the shareholders and not necessarily the clients or the consumers or the suppliers or anything like that.
Q: That’s right. In fact, there was a very detailed article about the psychology of the corporations. (“AND”) One of the — the — the new — the most recent tape sides that I — because I do invol(ve) — I do have articles from other sources at the end of some of the tapes. So I did include a long — (“YOU KNOW A”) investigation of corporations.
N*: Um-huh.
Q: And (“I MEAN”) that’s — the whole (“WORLD”) — the military industrial complex is — turns because people in positions of authority can make money for themselves. They can benefit from military expenditures and what-have-you. Nobody benefits themselves immediately (“FROM”) from anything having to do with cleaning up the environment. I mean we’ve lost (“YEAH”) two-thirds of the foliage cover for our planet in the last couple decades. And this isn’t in the corporate interest so you’re not going to hear about it on (“THE”) channel — the eight o’clock news. (“THAT’S ALL”) And that’s because no one is taking responsibility. (“I”) An(d) so anyway (“SO”) then — then there are people like me who come along and recently (“THERE”) there have been a lot of us who have evidence of reincarnation. I don’t know if you’ve heard any others but I — (“I” “LI[KE]”) I went to a lecture recently (“WITH”) by William Barnes and Walter Semkiw. Now Walter looks exactly like John Adams. And William Barnes thinks he’s the reincarnation of Thomas Andrews, who was the designer of the Titantic.
N: Right. Right. Okay.
Q: I think he’s working for the Titanic of today which is an aerospace company. I mean that isn’t his real name. It’s a pseudonym — (“IS”) William Barnes but there are a number of other individuals who (“I AA” “IDA” “HOW”) are quite prominent. For example, one of them is an Indianapolis Police Homicide captain named Robert Snow and he’s (“THE”) — he wrote a book about his previous incarnation as Carroll Beckwith, an artist. Then there was Jeffrey Keene who wrote a book. He apparently is the reincarnation of a brigadier general, John Gordon, in the Civil War. Let’s see — who else? Anyway, (“SO THE”) there’s (“BEEN A LO[T]”) — there’s a lot of (“INDIAN”) —
(TRANSCRIBER’S NOTE: ANOTHER AUTHOR WHO DISCUSSES HER PREVIOUS INCARNATION IS SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA’S BETTYE BINDER, A PAST LIFE REGRESSIONIST WHO DIDN’T BELIEVE IN REINCARNATION UNTIL EXPERIENCING MEMORIES FROM A PREVIOUS LIFE WHEN SHE WAS AN AMERICAN INDIAN WOMAN.)
Q: — good works about reincarnation out there. And (“WHEN”) I know when Walter gave his presentation here at The Learning Center back in February, I went and, of course, I gave them copies of my book. And — oh, by the way, William Barnes and his wife told me that their publishing company (“OR”), you know, who had did his audio book —
N*: Right.
Q: — had to pay $5,000 to get him on “Coast to Coast AM.” (“SO”) If that doesn’t tell you about why certain people get on that show and others don’t, then I don’t think anything will.
N*: (small laugh)
Q: I mean, again, that’s the corporate mentality: (“IS”) —
N*: Yeah.
Q: — “Let’s plug our newsletter”; or “Let’s sell more commercials”; “Let’s get people to go to the website.” Instead of just giving out an Email or website address — “Let’s make people go to our website (“BEFORE”) and link to it so we can sell — we can get more advertising revenue.” I mean that show is the biggest victim of the military industrial complex that I’ve ever heard and it professes to be about the paranormal and spiritual. Then why haven’t I been on? Anyway —
N: (small laugh)
Q: — (“ENOU”) enough sour grapes there. (“HILLY”)
N: (small laugh) (“LI[FE]”) That’s a whole other conversation.
Q: Exactly.
N*: Yeah.
Q: Exactly.
N: Listen, before we run out of time, I want to — I want to talk — I want to ask you something.
Q: Okay.
N: I — I did a little bit of research on the Internet about this because I was (“A” “I WAS”) interested in seeing what it had to say but I didn’t find out much. But we’ve had — we’ve had a — an interesting thing happen here where we’ve had glass explode.
Q: Well I once had glass explode in my life. And that was when I was living in Echo Park I decided — (“AA”) rent control apartment right on the beach in Santa Monica became available and I decided — I’ve always wanted to live by the beach — I decided to take it. Well my — my condo was less than $100,000. I thought I would sell it instantly and it didn’t sell. Well I remember I was — I was getting the place ready. I was upset about something and I was cussing at Mighael. And well I had — I had these large neon lights in the kitchen securely fastened. Never had any problems with them. Well one of them fell and exploded right next to me. (“AN I”) And I — of course, I mean I knew it was a symptom. I’ve had other similar symptoms too when I’ve had a bad attitude. (“AN”) In fact, sometimes (“WH[EN] I’M”) when I’m upset or discouraged, I’ll see a little (“T”) T-shirt (“WW”) that someone’s wearing that says ‘That’s a bad attitude’ or something. (“I MEAN” “YOU KNOW”) That’s how much help that I — I get. (“I ALSO”) I also would say (“KEEP OUT”) keep your eyes open for bumper stickers because that’s something else that I’ve seen — I’ve seen a lot of. But um I —
N: You mean as signs?
Q: Yes.
N: Yeah.
Q: As signs.
N: What happened with us, just to — just to take you back was —
Q: Okay.
N: I guess it was about a month ago or so. Actually, it was — it was around the time or shortly after I had interviewed Lizette Larkins on the program. And she had written a book called Talking To Extraterrestrials. And I don’t know — some — some strange things happened like as soon as the interview was over my computer crashed, which she had said that she had done five interviews since and the same thing had happened to every one of the interviewers. But anyway —
Q: Well (“DIDN’T SAY”) it all (“B”) comes down to —
N: Yeah.
Q: — the individual. (“I MEAN”) I personally find her not to be a very credible person simply because she’d worked with — she’d worked as a personal assistant to the author of Conversations With God. And if you look at all the wisdom traditions, it’s always the Satan spirit or the malevolent spirit that is pretending to be — to speak in one voice as God. And so I think that this book (“WAS”) was the pits. I know when I tried to market my book — I mean I didn’t get anywhere. He obviously found a publisher. And I think his book is far more unlikely than mine — I mean I could not have made my book up. (“I DON’T KNOW”) I don’t know if he did (“MAKE THE”) give the same evidence that I can in my book. He has a bestseller. He tells people that you can chant “I like money” three times — well that’s what people want to hear so I mean it’s obvious that that’s why he has the bestseller. My book is available (“FREE OF”) free of charge on the Internet and it says — it doesn’t say anything about taking for one’s self and that’s why I’ve been having a — I’ve had a big problem getting any kind of media attention. Because, again, that’s not going to help their advertisers. That’s not going to help the people in positions of authority—such as the Rockefellers—who own the media. (“ANYWAY”) That’s — that’s why the planet is where it is right now. Again, (“IN”) until there’s a heightened state of consciousness for everyone, we’re not — (“THE”) the Earth is not going to progress. (“YEAH”)
N*: And — and you said —
Q: And the alien metaphor can be very useful — I — I’ve — I interviewed people who’ve had — (“THE”) have experienced aliens and angels and some of them are very convincing but I remember when I listened to Lizette’s (“IN”) interview on another show and it sounded to me just like a compendium of other people’s experiences. I mean I just didn’t — there wasn’t really anything that I heard that made me think that this was based on anything other than just making money for herself. I mean she was working at a book publishing company — the book publishing company that published her book. I mean sure, you can make a — you could say, “Well God led her to become the assis(tant) — (“YOU KNOW THE”) someone who’s had alien experiences to work for someone who had this ‘conversations with God’ experience but I don’t know. I mean (“IT JUST” “IT JUST DIDN’T” “SALAD”) it sounded like a way to make money to me. (“GETTING BACK”)
N: Getting — getting back to my —
Q: Yeah.
N*: — glass —
N: — experience, though. This is — this was — this was — and this is what I really want — want your opinion on.
Q: Okay.
N: Because what she suggested was that I possibly, you know (or “YOU KNOW”), opened up — how do I say this? You know — just sort of opened up by talking about these things, by inviting these kind of ideas, that I maybe opened myself up to some extra energy or the energy I’ve t(apped) — I’ve tapped into, let’s say, some existing energy. And this was an ordinary drinking glass — you know a heavy — kind of heavy glass at the bottom and then it gets lighter as you go up — the glass.
Q: Um-huh.
N: And the thing was (“WE” “I”) I think my wife had two of them in her hands. We were just putting them away and literally one of them just shattered as if — as if it had been struck by a hammer, hit by a bullet. It didn’t just crack. It shattered like I’ve never seen it before. Well we were both stunned — I mean just standing there looking at this was absolutely unbelievable. And then about two or three weeks later — and by the way that’s the first time I’ve ever seen that in my entire 39 years. Three weeks later, we’re — we’re at her parents for Thanksgiving, Canadian Thanksgiving. And, gosh, if it doesn’t happen again. Another — I take a glass. I put it into the strainer. I take another one and put it aside. And the first one goes ka-boom. Very odd.
Q: Well in terms of the timing —
N: Yeah.
Q: — can you be more specific as to what was being discussed or what you were feeling right at the time when the glass exploded? (“I”)
N: Okay, I think — I’m just trying to get my — I think the very first time we weren’t actually talking. We were just kind of putting stuff away. There was no animosity. There was no tension really. We were just, y(ou k)now (or no), doing household chores. And then, of course, at Thanksgiving we were all there. The mood was light. There wasn’t really any — anything I can think of out of the ordinary. No.
Q: Were you eating turkey?
N: Yeah. Well at — at — we were at the — the Thanksgiving. Yeah.
Q: Right. Well that’s one of the — (“LET’S”) that’s one of the messages that I received (“WAS”) — well not only as you have these messages about becoming a vegan, (“WHEN YOU”) when you learn about what’s happening — (“WITH”) there are spiritual reasons for not eating meat. And in fact I — I have listed spiritual advice at the website and there are specific things that happened to me that led me to post these — the spiritual advice. “Meat is murder” is one of the spiritual advice that I have there on the list. Another one is “Love is the only true religion.” And, again, Mighael is associate(d) — the Angel Michael is associated with the commandments. And what happened to me is my television once went — turned itself on. I guess it was a TV commercial. (“AND THE”) The line was “Love is the only religion.” I guess it was a perfume company or something. And then it clicked off. Well I received the same message in other ways too. And I was receiving other messages. (“YEAH”) I once even — one of my spiritual messages is “An eye for an eye,” which basically is often misinterpreted to mean something other than the punishment should fit the crime. (“BUT”) Basically, what happened to me is I ha(d) — (“AFTER”) having this idea, an ant bit me below an eye. And (“THIS” “HAPPENED”) both before and after I had the thought. (“BECAUSE”) The first time it had happened to me was like a day before. And I just — (“YOU KNOW”) you forget about it — “What a freaky thing that is.” And then (“IT”) when it happened again after — I was listening to a radio program about capital punishment or crime. I think at the time it was Hilly Rose who was the — was the host of the show. And I had the strange, unusual experience with the ants. Well, anyway, I’ve had a number of other commandment experiences and, again, if you look at history, there are various individuals that the Force will choose to give messages at various times to help (“OTHER”) — to help expand the consciousness of others. I remember there are many different song lyrics where you hear “Give back to the world as much as you take,” one of them (“WAS”) “Circle of Life” — (“IN”) “The Lion King.” And, in fact, (“O[NE]”) — in my — in my transcripts (“I”) I have one of these songs. I can’t remember which one it was but I was just taping (“A[T]”) whatever came on the radio and it was — it had “Shouldn’t have taken more than you gave” or something. So I’ve been getting these different spiritual (advice) — I used to call them “commandments” but no one really takes the word “commandments” seriously. So I just call it — I have a section on the New Testament side that says Spiritual Advice. And (“I” “I”) “Trash your television” is a good one, let me tell you.
N: (small laugh) Mark, you know what, on that note, it’s — it’s — it’s just about time for twelve. I’ve got a bit of housecleaning to do.
Q: Okay.
N: Our time is up. (“AA”) So your — your website if people are interested in going to it is triple-W testament.org.
Q: Right and you don’t necessarily need the www but (“YEAH”) testament.org and there are photos and all kinds of things. (“N” “YOU CAN”) There’s also a space on the home page where people can send me an Email. If they have any questions, (“I’D”) I enjoy answering them.
N: Wonderful. Okay, listen, when I — when I finish the book, I will get back to you.
Q: Okay.
N: I’ll be in touch with you by Email.
Q: Thank you very much.
N: Thank you for joining us tonight, Mark.
Q: Thank you.
( . . . )
Q: (speaking into tape recorder) So my immediate reaction after the interview is that I didn’t really mean to get bitchy. If you could see the little notes I have in front of me, in parentheses I put “kindness.” Well I deserve the “bitch” bumper stickers. But I, as I’ve said before — someone has to do it. I’m trying to think what else I should have said.
( . . . )
Q: (sighs) So I guess I should apologize to everyone I named and judged. I certainly don’t mean to be a protagonist — or I should say antagonist or enemy to anyone. So I’m sorry, God and Mighael. I wasn’t kind. I’m not smart enough (to) be like the sages and all those Eastern spiritual anecdotes. I’m too emotional. Anyway, I don’t know enough really about any one person to judge them. I just have a very superficial knowledge of them. Yet some of them have achieved celebrity and renown so they make easy metaphors for what I’m trying to get across and to communicate. Anyway, I guess some other anecdotes are in order. If I end up attacking the spiritual community, it’s because my impression is that it’s been manipulated by various people for their own self-interest for economic reasons. I might add that regarding the Report From Iron Mountain, I’ve researched this on the Internet and I read that the author or the editor said it was a hoax; that only he was responsible in an article in some magazine. Other Web pages talk about Doctorow and other people who participated in the “satire.” Well how can I put it? At least one page said that it doesn’t matter what it was, you see all of the things in the report active in our society today. What does that mean? That some asshole in the government found the report and — anyway, who knows? But in A Search For The Truth by Ruth Montgomery [commercial author], she talks about her marriage. Her husband didn’t seem to really be very supportive of her spiritual work. In one of her early experiences on page nine in the book was when a medium channeled Ruth’s father who told her “Stop going on all those trips all over everywhere and stay at home more with Bob. It isn’t good to leave Bob all the time. Your marriage is the important thing.” She traveled for what she called “reportorial trips” and a little while after this message Big Chief White Mountain visited, a spirit who claimed to be her personal protector: “Me B — I — G Chief. Me heap big chief.” Anyway, spirit can result — I mean the more outlandish it is, the more it gets our attention when it happens to us. It might sound horrendous to others. Long before I went to Oklahoma, I’d read The Gods of Eden by William Bramley. And what really struck me was Chapter 40: “The Nature of a Supreme Being.”
What are we then to think of the idea of a Supreme Being sitting in “judgement” on the beings of Earth?
It is hard to imagine that a Supreme Being would condemn its own units of awareness, no matter how small and entrapped they have become, and no matter how insanely and destructively some of them behave as a result.
It is hard to imagine that a Supreme Being would condemn its own units of awareness, no matter how small and entrapped they have become, and no matter how insanely and destructively some of them behave as a result.
Q: As an aside, I should say that many probably would think that I’m that way but I’m just trying to do the best I can. And it’s hard to be kind. It’s easier to be angry. Anyway, it goes on to say.
Would a Supreme Being, seeing how bad everything has gotten, perhaps end its experiment and vanish all other awareness units except itself? If such a thing were possible, I daresay it would not be done. Creating an almost infinite number of spiritual beings would actually have been a brilliant move on the part of a Supreme Being to expand itself immeasurably. The solution to what went wrong would be to preserve the awareness units and encourage them to achieve their salvation.
Spiritual salvation would probably not happen through the waving of a magical Godly wand, however. Because spiritual beings possess free and independent will, salvation appears to be something that spiritual beings must take responsibility for themselves. It is up to every individual to seek out his or her salvation in an intelligent fashion. Salvation appears to be something that can be achieved as pragmatically as any other goal in life, provided that a rational understanding of how to attain it is developed.
Many theologies teach that a Supreme Being is opposed by an enemy. Perhaps there is an element of truth to this, even if the truth has been distorted. We do observe that at every level of existence there exists a condition or “game” in which survival is challenged. At the personal level, an individual’s survival is constantly opposed by aging, disease and other factors. The survival of a family unit is often tested by financial problems, hostile relatives and outside sexual temptations. Organizations and nations usually have competitors and enemies. In the animal kingdom, the survival drama is most vividly played out in hunter-prey relationships. All physical objects face inevitable deterioration. Spiritual beings themselves appear to face survival challenges by being trapped in matter.
Since this survival game seems to exist at every level of existence, it is possible that it also exists in regard to a Supreme Being — a game in which a Supreme Being’s own survival is tested by the diminishment of its awareness units and perhaps by the ultimate diminishment of the Supreme Being itself. For such a game to exist, a Supreme Being would have had to either negotiate with one or more of its own awareness units to be the Supreme Being’s opponent(s), or a Supreme Being would have to create in one or more of its awareness units an apprehension that a Supreme Being posed a threat to the continued existence of all other spiritual beings. A Supreme Being’s opponent would not be any different or inherently more evil than any other spiritual being, any more than one neighbor who sits down opposite another to play a game of Monopoly is innately more evil just because he or she plays a different side. An opponent would simply be one who became a different marker on a game board and played as well as possible. If such a game has indeed existed, then we can certainly hope that it may end soon by a Supreme Being conveying thanks to the opponent(s) for a game well-played, promising the indefinite survival of its awareness units, and asking that the game be stopped. It seems time to put many old games to rest so that everyone may start moving into a new phase of fundamentally-improved existence.
Spiritual salvation would probably not happen through the waving of a magical Godly wand, however. Because spiritual beings possess free and independent will, salvation appears to be something that spiritual beings must take responsibility for themselves. It is up to every individual to seek out his or her salvation in an intelligent fashion. Salvation appears to be something that can be achieved as pragmatically as any other goal in life, provided that a rational understanding of how to attain it is developed.
Many theologies teach that a Supreme Being is opposed by an enemy. Perhaps there is an element of truth to this, even if the truth has been distorted. We do observe that at every level of existence there exists a condition or “game” in which survival is challenged. At the personal level, an individual’s survival is constantly opposed by aging, disease and other factors. The survival of a family unit is often tested by financial problems, hostile relatives and outside sexual temptations. Organizations and nations usually have competitors and enemies. In the animal kingdom, the survival drama is most vividly played out in hunter-prey relationships. All physical objects face inevitable deterioration. Spiritual beings themselves appear to face survival challenges by being trapped in matter.
Since this survival game seems to exist at every level of existence, it is possible that it also exists in regard to a Supreme Being — a game in which a Supreme Being’s own survival is tested by the diminishment of its awareness units and perhaps by the ultimate diminishment of the Supreme Being itself. For such a game to exist, a Supreme Being would have had to either negotiate with one or more of its own awareness units to be the Supreme Being’s opponent(s), or a Supreme Being would have to create in one or more of its awareness units an apprehension that a Supreme Being posed a threat to the continued existence of all other spiritual beings. A Supreme Being’s opponent would not be any different or inherently more evil than any other spiritual being, any more than one neighbor who sits down opposite another to play a game of Monopoly is innately more evil just because he or she plays a different side. An opponent would simply be one who became a different marker on a game board and played as well as possible. If such a game has indeed existed, then we can certainly hope that it may end soon by a Supreme Being conveying thanks to the opponent(s) for a game well-played, promising the indefinite survival of its awareness units, and asking that the game be stopped. It seems time to put many old games to rest so that everyone may start moving into a new phase of fundamentally-improved existence.
(TRANSCRIBER’S NOTE: THE FOLLOWING EXCERPTS FROM THE FOLLOWING TAPE SIDE ALSO CONCERN THE INTERVIEW.)
Q: Well that’s obviously not the right-on, specific truth. There’s no mention of kindness or Love but amen to survival games stopping. . . .
( . . . )
Q: . . . and I was thinking about what I said and I made a mistake, as always. When the light fell in the kitchen, it didn’t break. I mean the meaning was the same. But I did have an experience once where something broke and the meaning I’m sure was a warning about attitude. I just can’t remember what it was. That’s why I guess I have a documentary-style case study because you do forget things.
( . . . )
Q: I also forgot to mention about Premiere Radio charging people to access the Internet archives at the artbell.com website. Something that for many years was free.
( . . . )
Q: Well it’s around midnight I guess. Before I go to bed I thought I would remind myself with a note that I remembered what broke. It was my glass cake holder. Yet I don’t remember the circumstances. It was a crystal cut-glass cake holder. As if I’d be needing that.
Q: Well that’s obviously not the right-on, specific truth. There’s no mention of kindness or Love but amen to survival games stopping. . . .
( . . . )
Q: . . . and I was thinking about what I said and I made a mistake, as always. When the light fell in the kitchen, it didn’t break. I mean the meaning was the same. But I did have an experience once where something broke and the meaning I’m sure was a warning about attitude. I just can’t remember what it was. That’s why I guess I have a documentary-style case study because you do forget things.
( . . . )
Q: I also forgot to mention about Premiere Radio charging people to access the Internet archives at the artbell.com website. Something that for many years was free.
( . . . )
Q: Well it’s around midnight I guess. Before I go to bed I thought I would remind myself with a note that I remembered what broke. It was my glass cake holder. Yet I don’t remember the circumstances. It was a crystal cut-glass cake holder. As if I’d be needing that.
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