RADIO INTERVIEW — TAPE #648, SIDE #2
Q: Mark Russell Bell
A: Aage Nost, owner of KRVL
J: Janet Russell, co-host of “Night Search” radio show
C: Colleen Johnston, co-host of “Night Search” radio show
(X): unattributed sounds
A: All right. Five four three two one.
J: This is “Night Search,” the voice of the paranormal from Tucson, Arizona KRVL 103.1 FM. My name is Janet Russell and tonight we have — I’m from New York — and we have — our co-host is Colleen Johnston from North Carolina. And we have a fascinating guest, Mark Russell Bell. Mark is talking about his book Testament and it’s a true life story about a poltergeist that actually happened in — out here in the world.
Q: Well that’s what it —
J: Mark, welcome back. Colleen, welcome back.
Q: Welcome back. Yeah.
C: (O)kay.
Q: That’s what it had started out as. As just a poltergeist case but then, of course, when I went there and they were calling “Michael.” And even though there were alien stories and spirit anecdotes. Of course, later on I would read the Messages From Michael books and by — after all this material coming my way, I sort of realized that this all was an Angelic Force. I (“SOR[T]”) look at it as Christ Consciousness, (“TH”) the Force (“THE CON[SC]”) — the Superconscious Mind, perhaps. And — so, anyway, I guess too I should name of the other events that happened right before I had gone to Oklahoma, which had began to prepare me for the experience. I did actually hear a voice, which was the only time since that childhood experience — I think in the early ’90s (“WHERE”) where one night I had heard, “FATHER, I HAVE WAITED SO LONG.” And at the time I just thought, “Oh my gosh. What was that?” I mean it was — since this had never had happened except way back when and I wasn’t even thinking back to that at the time. I just — it sort of stuck with me but I just basically didn’t know what to do with it so I just forgot about it. I did meet a psychic named Maria Papapetros on the set of “The Butcher’s Wife.” And I really wasn’t that into — big into psychics at the time. And she gave me a free psychic reading after I met her. (“AND”) She said that someone by the name of Michael would get my project going.
C: Whoa.
Q: And she had like a swinging pendulum indicating (“YOU KNOW”) the “spirit guide” was helping. And, of course, at the time I thought, “Oh well that’s sort of hokey. I mean like this was some Indian Brave-type character. I mean come on.” But then — see, I had also done some historical research for screenplays. I had wanted to be a screenwriter and, of course, working in Hollywood you realize that that old adage that “If you write a good script, the world will beat a path to your door” is a complete lie. It’s more like “If you write garbage, the world will beat a path to your door.”
C: Right.
Q: So I had researched two famous historical figures. One was Catherine Cadiere, who was the last — the figure involved in the last formal trial for witchcraft in France. And then there was Julia Pastrana who was this very flamboyant nineteenth century semi-hybrid, almost like a half-bigfoot/half-Mexican peasant woman who became a singer and dancer who was well-known throughout the world.
C: Wow.
Q: Right. So these were screenplay projects that I had in mind and, anyway, after doing this research, I had experienced two what were called raptures of Christ. And I thought, perhaps, well maybe this was because — at the time, I basically wrote my perceptions of the experiences into my computer, thinking, (“WELL”) “I can’t really tell anyone. I mean no one would believe me and what does it all mean, anyway?” So I totally forgot about this. I just wrote it down and put it in my computer and forgot about it for a couple years. Other strange things were happening too like I had an alien dream where I was (“UP”) on a UFO. (“AND”) I never saw an alien but I remember thinking — I got up off the table or whatever and I was going to hide behind a door. There was some kind of door there and I said, “I don’t like it here. I’m really going to bash this alien. Whoever comes in that door is going to get this door in his face.”
?: (laughs)
Q: Which is really not a very nice thing to do but that was really — that was —
C: It was (an) understandable thing to do.
Q: Yeah — well fear. I mean I since have learned the lesson (“THA” X ‘NO”) that love is stronger than fear. I think that’s really my main message — is that all of my experiences together really does manifest a God of love and forgiveness. And when you really think of how much kindness we each receive each day, you really do — can put the misfortune of things in the world into their proper perspective. (X) But I remember there was one poltergeist TV show I was watching. I’ve since given up watching TV, I might add. But it was — I think it was the true case that led to the movie “Poltergeist” (“ME”) —
C: Right.
Q: — on channel 11. And at one point there was this face that appeared in the TV set like walking toward me and then circling and then receding. And I thought, “Well either that’s a joke by the producers of this movie or it’s some kind of crossed reception of the TV. I mean I just promptly explained it away and forgot about it. (“BUT”) I also remember watching an “Unsolved Mysteries” episode where somebody was complaining about somebody who was leaving messages on the patio. (“THEY”) They couldn’t figure out who it was and they had cameras. And one time the lady even felt something at the back of her head and she lost consciousness. And they didn’t know how this person could’ve attacked her when all — with all the cameras going. And, of course, when I saw this I thought, “Oh well that’s a definite poltergeist case.”
C: Right. (“SO”)
Q: Anyway, when I went to Oklahoma, these small events — and there was that special, that “Ghosts, Mediums, Psychics: Put To The Test.” And if people did see that, they did see actual paranormal phenomena. There was a chair that moved and this was caught on film. When Twyla was getting up from the chair, you could actually see the chair move. And there was a heat-photographed face in the window which looked sort of like those transparent ‘aliens’ in that one photo in the book. And at the very end (“WHEN”) the reporter asks Michael to give a sign, there’s a howl in the distance, which sort of established the connection to, (“TH”) you know, the animal’s subconscious or the Superconscious mind. (X “BUT” “WHEN”) Anyway, when I was there, I saw coins, pebbles materializing. A nail hit me in the head and bounced off. There was talking about one of the aliens was named Leader. And there was a Leader Creek in the area. And all of these things, of course, were — I was trying to put these — all these different things into perspective at the time, thinking, “Well what am I going to do? These aliens are supposed to be from Saturn. The table lurched forward. Rocks were hitting the windshield from inside and outside the car. And I was trying to explain these things at the time, like saying, “Oh well that means that’s Michael’s trying to tell us that he’s both inside and outside the car, of course.” (X) I heard spirit giggling. There was deep groaning almost like you’d hear from Lurch in “The Addams Family.” There was wasps. There were interactions with ants and there were cockroaches there. When we went to dinner — with Maxine, her chair — she first told me that her chair had bent inward and then mine did. Then, moisture appeared on my pants (I meant my bag). So when I came home from Oklahoma, (X “I” “ONE OF”) at one point I called my friend Fiona (“WHO”) was a psychic reader at the time working in the valley and she said that as she was speaking — as I was speaking to her, a magnet flew off her refrigerator. But, of course, (“BEING” “SHE WAS”) being a — she’s a channel, herself so she — (“THOUGHT”) she’s used to these types of experiences. But then when I called my mother, I said, “Michael, give me a sign.” And she said, “Well there’s nothing happening.” And then she said, (“WA”) “Just a moment. Some wasps are acting strangely.” And, of course, there’d been some wasps in that house in Centrahoma. And then I called my friend Marie. (“AND”) When we were — when I was in Oklahoma, people were always saying how “Michael takes my money. (“MY”) He took five dollars from me” or whatever. So and Marie told me that her bank account had been cleared out somehow. Somebody — (“YEAH”) she did not give her card to anyone else. She has the only card but somehow her bank account had cleared out. Well, anyway, she and I both immediately thought that it was my Mighael (X) and —
?: No!
Q: Right. (“BIG”) And so then I went to a slide show at (X) my brother and his friend’s house. And there was a slide show and my friend Charlotte said, “The man in the Hawaiian shirt was the tour leader.” And then my friend Patty said her car was a Saturn. And I was beginning to get the (X) realization (X) that this Angelic Force was sort of training me (“THAT”) the Entity was communicating with me through the subconscious minds of other people. So this was sort of a ritualized lesson — my being in Oklahoma where, basically, using my belief system, It was explaining how God or the Christ Consciousness (“WAS”) was revealing Himself to me. So then, of course, I realized the extent of the spirit messages on the tapes. At one point, I even thought, (“O”) “What does this mean about myself?” I started reading (“UP”) on religion and I read in my Viking Desk Encyclopedia about Jesus and it said (X “HE” “MI” “BEEN”) might’ve been a little bit older when this happened to him and, anyway, I just sort of thought, “What if I’m the reincarnation of Jesus Christ?” (“AND”) — which was sort of unfortunate now when I look back at it. At one point, I did feel like the Entity left (X) my body. I was going through this period where I was telling people who they were the reincarnation of. (“I”) At one point, this Force left me and I felt — (X “YOU KNOW”) I just thought, (“WE[LL]”) “I’m totally helpless if this Force were to come back. I mean I could kill someone or something terrible could happen and I would not be in control.”
J: Yeah.
Q: So my — basically, my friends were very concerned for me. And I thought that Mighael was channeling through people’s subconscious minds. And, like, my mom said, “Finish the book in two weeks.” So I was trying to finish the book in two weeks. So at one point I told my brother after this(X) — I felt the Spirit leave me. I said, “I want to die.” I didn’t really mean it. I just felt I was just —
C: Right.
Q: — very tired and I didn’t know what to make of it all and — so, anyway, they talked me into going away for the weekend to a retreat, which I thought was going to be like a spa somewhere in Palm Springs. And in turned out to be a (“MM”) mental clinic.
?: (laughs) (“NO”)
Q: So — and there things really got of hand. I mean the Mighael Force was basically channeling through the other mental patients there. The nurses were hallucinating. I think they filmed it too but I haven’t been able to get a tape.
C: That’s pretty wild.
Q: It was really. (“I ME”) This one lady who was — (“LIKE”) she could not move and she could not speak but all of a sudden she would turn to me and start talking about the onion crops on another planet. I mean it was just totally bizarre. I mean — and then I would be watching TV — (X “AND”) the morning highway reporter would all of a sudden gesture like the dissolves in the movie “Wayne’s World.” And I just — it was just totally, totally bizarre.
C: Oh I bet.
Q: Plus they were medicating me even though — (“I HAD” “SI[GN]”) when I signed myself in, I’d said no medication but they went ahead. And they were scared to death of me. Especially since other people were hallucinating. I mean I had not told anyone about my experiences and other ‘inmates’ were talking about seeing a child whose head had been decapitated. (X) I didn’t even know this at the time. (“MY”) My friend Fiona told me this later. She said (“THAT THE”) the night nurse had told her that this was going on. (X) I mean I do remember (X “YEAH”) strange things. I remember one of the nurses went to our group and said, “Oh we have somebody famous here today: James Garner.” And, of course, this person looked nothing at all like James Garner. So I just felt, “Well there’s something terribly, terribly wrong.” And I remember at one point (“THE[Y WE]RE THE[Y WE]RE”) playing a song for sing-along and it was a Michael Jackson song. And it was just the music but all of a sudden you hear could Michael Jackson. So I just felt that, (X) “Well this is really — what is going on here?” So —
C: Right.
Q: I mean if they do have the video tapes, I would like to see them even though it would be terribly embarrassing because — I mean people were giving me information. (“LIKE THIS”) Like this one Oriental girl was going in and out of lucidity and saying things like, “Well you’re Jesus and that man over there is God.” And, of course, I thought that the ‘man over there’ was probably a CIA agent because of the way he was acting. (“AND I”) Because I knew that they were — you know, they were filming me. And I did have a ‘men in black’ experience. (“SO”) Anyway, I didn’t know what — I was only there for a few days and I basically went out and I started therapy with Judith Orloff, who is a well-known psychic therapist. And — so that was very interesting. When she said, “Michael, prove to me, you know, you’re here.” I said, “Well that earthquake we had.” And she said, “Oh well that earthquake happened before I asked.” And I said, “I know.” (X) So, anyway — and I try to document these things in the book. When I did start working on the book after, of course, having researched the Bell Witch case when there was various — you know, time — obviously time and space meant nothing to this Force.
C: Right.
Q: I decided I would take a break and watch TV. (X) So I turned on — it was MTV and it was that documentary series “The Real World.” And as soon as I turned on the TV, the London youths were basically talking about their telephone system going out. And then my TV went off. So I quickly realized that something was going on with television. My TV would come on and off and —
C: Were any of the people that were around you at the time — the nurses, whatever — were they aware of a strange phenomena?
Q: Um —
C: Did they — or did they seem like they were aware?
Q: Well at the time — (“I” “I MEAN”) it was — well what they did, (“IS”) they changed the people around me. Every day they would bring in different people.
C: Right.
Q: So they obviously were trying — (“TO THINK”) they probably thought I was doing it somehow to the other people. I remember playing, like, some game — (“OF”) some game where you — some board game, where if you win — if you get into the middle, you win. (“N”) And basically the other patients were not playing correctly and I somehow won. And, you know, just all these strange things were going on. And I remember at one point, (“THEY”) I was in the front lobby and they were trying to see, I guess, if I was schizophrenic or (X) something. So I heard them say, “Mark, why are you here?”
J: Oh my goodness.
Q: So and I — (X “YOU KNOW”) it made me almost laugh because (“YOU KNOW”) it was just so absurd.
C: Right.
Q: So I remember picking up the magazines and finding something strange about those and just holding them up — oh I think it was “The Grateful Dead,” I think, was on the cover. (“SO I” “M ME”) There was all this synchronicity that was sort of working on my behalf. And then, for example, like one time the TV came on one early morning and there was (one of ) the movie (series) “Topper ” (X) was on and they were talking about some mental institution and there were oran(ges) — like there was this bag of oranges and, you know, being a cinephile I can remember all the oranges in various movies and the meaning of the oranges as a leitmotif. (“WELL WHAT”)
C: What’s real interesting is that a lot of the people in mental hospitals — you know, there’ve been some different discussions on that. I’m sure (“OH YEAH”) this is not going to be scientific but —
Q: Oh no, I’ve read cases in magazines where I realized —
C: Right.
Q: — a lot of these people with — who go ‘psycho’ — it’s because they start realizing that there is —
C: They are psychic (X) or they have some type of ability to perceive beyond normal . . .
Q: Yeah or just — I think even sometimes it’s just an inkling that something somehow is communicating to them through other people’s subconscious minds and they almost become paranoid because ‘What is this strange — um (or “UM” “YY”) what is going on here?’ It’s like —
J: Yeah. That they’re like a vessel (X). . .
Q: Yeah. So I —
C: Yeah.
Q: Yeah. (or “YEAH”) So I think it’s basically — well it makes you think of the “conscious universe” and it rally takes on meaning when you read my book because you really can see what the “conscious universe” means and you do really see a personality there. I like to sort of say well we’re all — (“LIKE”) “God is the ultimate split personality and we’re all just different aspects of that Personality.” And since it’s a very loving Force, we do have evidence of reincarnation. (X “FOR”) In my case, for example, when I was doing my research — this was after my friend Marie all of a sudden heard “Mark” — we had talked about whether or not I should have a pseudonym and she heard “MARK RUSSELL BELL.” And so she called me and I thought it had a nice ring to it. So um (or “SO UM”) I was researching — I was (“LOOK”) — I got out Zechariah Sitchin’s book and I was sort of still researching Jesus Christ and I (X) found this mentioning (X) of Bel-Marduk (X) — basically (X) found that this Bel-Marduk was this precursor “of the New Testament tale of the death, entombment, and resurrection of Jesus. Sentenced to exile, Ra/Marduk became Amen-Ra, the unseen god. . . . scholars seriously debated at the turn of this century whether his story was a prototype of the story of Christ.” So (or “SO” “A”) little while after that, I was shopping at an antique store and I found this — I guess it was an Italian facsimile of an old Egyptian piece and it basically was of me with a (X) pharaoh-type cap on my head, holding some Egyptian (X) paraphernalia. So it’s sort of — it was confirmation that I had been this Egyptian priest named Bel-Marduk. And then so that reminded me of the Fortean Times cover and the scarab beetle in Oklahoma. (“AND THEN I”) You know, when I was doing these — transcribing the spirit messages, I was reading James Van Praagh’s book Talking To Heaven.
J: I just spoke to him last week.
Q: Because, you know, he’d worked at Paramount in contracts development (I meant administration). I don’t think he was there when I was there or if he was — my first film was the movie “The Untouchables” where I was working as a freelancer. And I know he was working in contracts development but he basically (X) said, “Usually I don’t hear in complete sentences as I can in normal conversation with human beings. When a spirit says, ‘Hello, how are you today,’ I may hear ‘lo, are yo day.'” And that’s exactly what was happening with a lot of these spirit messages — is I would just hear bits of speech. For example, one of the early ones was when I’m talking about mind-reading, (“AND”) I heard “IT’S FU.” Just “IT’S” then “F — U.” I put in “IT’S FUN” in my transcript because I didn’t think — (“WHAT EL” “LIKE”) didn’t know what else it could be. Unless it was profanity and I didn’t think it was that. (“I” “BUT UM”) So — and then in my second book, (“UM”) which I call New Testament at the website — which is a continuation. I just went ahead and started phonetically doing the spirit messages. And I think probably it shows that I have improved as a (X) transcriber. (“SO”)
C: Maybe you were an old scribe in another life.
Q: Well see, then I became aware of that whole Ra-Ta thing with Edgar Cayce. I actually had found the (X) parts all about Ra-Ta in a transcript of the original Edgar Cayce sessions over at the Bodhi Tree in Los Angeles. And that same night — I mean I was getting the message that this was very important to me. I mean the lights went off in my apartment building that night and I was reading it via flashlight. Because, again, in the Zecharia Sitchin books there was this parallel between Ra and Bel-Marduk. And I did realize that this, in fact — I mean that I was basically Ra-Ta. Because Edgar Cayce, of course, had said Ra-Ta would return to the world in 1998. And, of course, he himself had thought that he was Ra-Ta but what I think happened (X) there is that, that was his — what he — he thought, “Well the reason why I’m talking about Ra-Ta is because this was me.” But if you really look at it, he made a mistake (X) and he wasn’t the actual Ra-Ta. But, of course, Ra-Ta could be an honorary designation, meaning ‘Sun-Earth’ so there could be many different (X) people with that honorary designation. (X) But he did say that Ra-Ta would return to the world in 1998 and, of course, my website was discovered by a lot of people during that time.
C: Do you want to go ahead and, for people that have just tuned in, do you want to go ahead and give out your website again?
Q: Yes, it’s testament.org and, basically, the entire book is there: Testament and the follow-up book New Testament where I have all kinds of different interviews. Just to give you an idea, there’s —
C: Email also?
Q: What did you say?
C: Do you have Email also?
Q: Yeah, you can click on my Email address there. And I have my therapy sessions with my psychic psychiatrist. I have my insurance agent discussion because, of course, when I came back from Oklahoma, Blue Cross wouldn’t pay (for the mental clinic visit). I mean they really crucified me with that check, let me tell you. I mean I never ended up paying it but it ruined my credit. My hypnother(apy) — I did start seeing a hypnotherapist after Judith. (“WHO”) I have my hypnotherapy sessions there. Some of my interviews — for example, I started interviewing Hugh Langtry at an antique store because I was buying all these very interesting antiques. (X) I felt that Mighael basically was leading me to these wonderful antiques to sort of prove His existence. So I started interviewing Hugh Langtry about antiques and I ended up talking about “The Outer Limits” because (“HE HAD” “END”) he had been playing all the aliens in the TV show and I didn’t even realize that (“WH”) when I started interviewing him. So there are lots of little surprises like that along the way. And there is a fair amount of Hollywood interviews. I remember going to the Elizabeth Leustig Memorial interview — memorial service and doing interviews there. And there’s some talk about the movie “12 Monkeys” which my friend Marie took me to see.
C: That is just — that’s a phenomenal —
J: Yes.
C: — movie. It really is.
Q: Well you might have a different (X) interpretation of it after reading my entire book. (X) I also interviewed Hank Hanegraaff, the Bible Answer Man, when I was trying to share with him some of my experience. And there are sort of ‘whistle-blowing’ transcripts of conversations with Coca-Cola as well as (X) Blue Cross. I also have a channeling session in the book (“THAT”) Barbara Rapp did — (“I”) met her at one of the Whole Life Expos (X) and, basically, from just one quick message that she had transcribed, I felt that she was legitimate so I went ahead and included that. (“CHANNELING” “I STILL WAY”) At this point, I really wonder about the channelers in general because there are some that I believe are authentic but what disturbs me is that so much of the material seems to be bad information and people just take it at face value because it’s coming from some kind of unearthly source.
C: Well, you know, if you think of it this way, I mean it’s like, you know, if you’re going to call a spirit in basically without getting a little reference —
Q: Right. (or “RIGHT”)
C: You know, if you’re going to call that spirit in, that’s like throwing open all your windows and doors in your house and screaming, “Well come on in.” You don’t know what you’re going to get.
J: That’s very true.
C: And so truly that’s why I believe there’s a lot of, you know, there may be a lot of good positive information but bad information comes out that way too.
Q: I know. I remember like — there was this one (X) character named Ra I guess and he was saying that there’s (X) — whenever I hear like “There’s no such thing as right or wrong or good and evil,” it really just — (“THAT JUST”) — I see red. I’m sorry. I mean this is obviously not a god of love.
C: Right. (“BUT”)
Q: In terms of (“THE”) the channeling here — (“I”) sometimes I don’t really know what to make of it. Some of it seems to be true but, then again, we do bring an element of our own personality when we (X) channel and we — (“THINK THAT” “IF”) I mean it depends on the (X) channeler. I mean we might not think — we might not be a clear channel because we might bring our own prejudices. So I really don’t know what to make of it all. (“SHE”) Some of — the bit about energy sources I find to be compelling but then other days I wonder. So, anyway, I’m just concerned about the New Age gobbledygook. Even though I’ve had all these experiences, I’m very careful about what I believe and I don’t take anything at face value.
C: You can’t take it at face value anymore.
J: I think, Colleen, we’re coming down to our next break . . .
C: Yeah, we sure are. We’re coming right up to it.
J: Well I have to — (“NO”) I have to say good night . . . Mark, it was a pleasure to —
Q: Yes, nice meeting you and — (“BYE”)
C: . . . talk to you, Janet as always.
Q: . . . The House of Russell in the book. You’ll have to look at that lineage chart.
J: I’ll have to look at that . . .
C: Okay. Well we’re going to go ahead and come up on our break. You’re listening to “Night Search” and we’ll be back in a few minutes . . . Eddie Middleton. You’re listening to us on KRVL 103.1 FM Tucson, Arizona. We’ll be right back. (pause)
( . . . )
C: Okay, love you, Janet.
J: I love you too.
C: We’ll talk soon.
J: I will . . . Okay, Aage, I’ll talk to you Wednesday night.
A: Okay.
J: And, Mark, very interesting.
Q: I’ll send you a copy of the book. (X)
J: Sounds great. Okay . . . I’ll talk to you . . . Eddie I said hi. . . .
A: . . . Eddie’s on the other line.
C: Okay.
?: I’ll hang up.
A: I need somebody to —
J: . . . Good night.
A: Which line are you on?
J: (gives number)
C: (gives number)
J: Okay, good night.
A: All right . . .
Q: Good night.
J: Bye-bye.
C: (O)kay.
J: This is “Night Search,” the voice of the paranormal from Tucson, Arizona KRVL 103.1 FM. My name is Janet Russell and tonight we have — I’m from New York — and we have — our co-host is Colleen Johnston from North Carolina. And we have a fascinating guest, Mark Russell Bell. Mark is talking about his book Testament and it’s a true life story about a poltergeist that actually happened in — out here in the world.
Q: Well that’s what it —
J: Mark, welcome back. Colleen, welcome back.
Q: Welcome back. Yeah.
C: (O)kay.
Q: That’s what it had started out as. As just a poltergeist case but then, of course, when I went there and they were calling “Michael.” And even though there were alien stories and spirit anecdotes. Of course, later on I would read the Messages From Michael books and by — after all this material coming my way, I sort of realized that this all was an Angelic Force. I (“SOR[T]”) look at it as Christ Consciousness, (“TH”) the Force (“THE CON[SC]”) — the Superconscious Mind, perhaps. And — so, anyway, I guess too I should name of the other events that happened right before I had gone to Oklahoma, which had began to prepare me for the experience. I did actually hear a voice, which was the only time since that childhood experience — I think in the early ’90s (“WHERE”) where one night I had heard, “FATHER, I HAVE WAITED SO LONG.” And at the time I just thought, “Oh my gosh. What was that?” I mean it was — since this had never had happened except way back when and I wasn’t even thinking back to that at the time. I just — it sort of stuck with me but I just basically didn’t know what to do with it so I just forgot about it. I did meet a psychic named Maria Papapetros on the set of “The Butcher’s Wife.” And I really wasn’t that into — big into psychics at the time. And she gave me a free psychic reading after I met her. (“AND”) She said that someone by the name of Michael would get my project going.
C: Whoa.
Q: And she had like a swinging pendulum indicating (“YOU KNOW”) the “spirit guide” was helping. And, of course, at the time I thought, “Oh well that’s sort of hokey. I mean like this was some Indian Brave-type character. I mean come on.” But then — see, I had also done some historical research for screenplays. I had wanted to be a screenwriter and, of course, working in Hollywood you realize that that old adage that “If you write a good script, the world will beat a path to your door” is a complete lie. It’s more like “If you write garbage, the world will beat a path to your door.”
C: Right.
Q: So I had researched two famous historical figures. One was Catherine Cadiere, who was the last — the figure involved in the last formal trial for witchcraft in France. And then there was Julia Pastrana who was this very flamboyant nineteenth century semi-hybrid, almost like a half-bigfoot/half-Mexican peasant woman who became a singer and dancer who was well-known throughout the world.
C: Wow.
Q: Right. So these were screenplay projects that I had in mind and, anyway, after doing this research, I had experienced two what were called raptures of Christ. And I thought, perhaps, well maybe this was because — at the time, I basically wrote my perceptions of the experiences into my computer, thinking, (“WELL”) “I can’t really tell anyone. I mean no one would believe me and what does it all mean, anyway?” So I totally forgot about this. I just wrote it down and put it in my computer and forgot about it for a couple years. Other strange things were happening too like I had an alien dream where I was (“UP”) on a UFO. (“AND”) I never saw an alien but I remember thinking — I got up off the table or whatever and I was going to hide behind a door. There was some kind of door there and I said, “I don’t like it here. I’m really going to bash this alien. Whoever comes in that door is going to get this door in his face.”
?: (laughs)
Q: Which is really not a very nice thing to do but that was really — that was —
C: It was (an) understandable thing to do.
Q: Yeah — well fear. I mean I since have learned the lesson (“THA” X ‘NO”) that love is stronger than fear. I think that’s really my main message — is that all of my experiences together really does manifest a God of love and forgiveness. And when you really think of how much kindness we each receive each day, you really do — can put the misfortune of things in the world into their proper perspective. (X) But I remember there was one poltergeist TV show I was watching. I’ve since given up watching TV, I might add. But it was — I think it was the true case that led to the movie “Poltergeist” (“ME”) —
C: Right.
Q: — on channel 11. And at one point there was this face that appeared in the TV set like walking toward me and then circling and then receding. And I thought, “Well either that’s a joke by the producers of this movie or it’s some kind of crossed reception of the TV. I mean I just promptly explained it away and forgot about it. (“BUT”) I also remember watching an “Unsolved Mysteries” episode where somebody was complaining about somebody who was leaving messages on the patio. (“THEY”) They couldn’t figure out who it was and they had cameras. And one time the lady even felt something at the back of her head and she lost consciousness. And they didn’t know how this person could’ve attacked her when all — with all the cameras going. And, of course, when I saw this I thought, “Oh well that’s a definite poltergeist case.”
C: Right. (“SO”)
Q: Anyway, when I went to Oklahoma, these small events — and there was that special, that “Ghosts, Mediums, Psychics: Put To The Test.” And if people did see that, they did see actual paranormal phenomena. There was a chair that moved and this was caught on film. When Twyla was getting up from the chair, you could actually see the chair move. And there was a heat-photographed face in the window which looked sort of like those transparent ‘aliens’ in that one photo in the book. And at the very end (“WHEN”) the reporter asks Michael to give a sign, there’s a howl in the distance, which sort of established the connection to, (“TH”) you know, the animal’s subconscious or the Superconscious mind. (X “BUT” “WHEN”) Anyway, when I was there, I saw coins, pebbles materializing. A nail hit me in the head and bounced off. There was talking about one of the aliens was named Leader. And there was a Leader Creek in the area. And all of these things, of course, were — I was trying to put these — all these different things into perspective at the time, thinking, “Well what am I going to do? These aliens are supposed to be from Saturn. The table lurched forward. Rocks were hitting the windshield from inside and outside the car. And I was trying to explain these things at the time, like saying, “Oh well that means that’s Michael’s trying to tell us that he’s both inside and outside the car, of course.” (X) I heard spirit giggling. There was deep groaning almost like you’d hear from Lurch in “The Addams Family.” There was wasps. There were interactions with ants and there were cockroaches there. When we went to dinner — with Maxine, her chair — she first told me that her chair had bent inward and then mine did. Then, moisture appeared on my pants (I meant my bag). So when I came home from Oklahoma, (X “I” “ONE OF”) at one point I called my friend Fiona (“WHO”) was a psychic reader at the time working in the valley and she said that as she was speaking — as I was speaking to her, a magnet flew off her refrigerator. But, of course, (“BEING” “SHE WAS”) being a — she’s a channel, herself so she — (“THOUGHT”) she’s used to these types of experiences. But then when I called my mother, I said, “Michael, give me a sign.” And she said, “Well there’s nothing happening.” And then she said, (“WA”) “Just a moment. Some wasps are acting strangely.” And, of course, there’d been some wasps in that house in Centrahoma. And then I called my friend Marie. (“AND”) When we were — when I was in Oklahoma, people were always saying how “Michael takes my money. (“MY”) He took five dollars from me” or whatever. So and Marie told me that her bank account had been cleared out somehow. Somebody — (“YEAH”) she did not give her card to anyone else. She has the only card but somehow her bank account had cleared out. Well, anyway, she and I both immediately thought that it was my Mighael (X) and —
?: No!
Q: Right. (“BIG”) And so then I went to a slide show at (X) my brother and his friend’s house. And there was a slide show and my friend Charlotte said, “The man in the Hawaiian shirt was the tour leader.” And then my friend Patty said her car was a Saturn. And I was beginning to get the (X) realization (X) that this Angelic Force was sort of training me (“THAT”) the Entity was communicating with me through the subconscious minds of other people. So this was sort of a ritualized lesson — my being in Oklahoma where, basically, using my belief system, It was explaining how God or the Christ Consciousness (“WAS”) was revealing Himself to me. So then, of course, I realized the extent of the spirit messages on the tapes. At one point, I even thought, (“O”) “What does this mean about myself?” I started reading (“UP”) on religion and I read in my Viking Desk Encyclopedia about Jesus and it said (X “HE” “MI” “BEEN”) might’ve been a little bit older when this happened to him and, anyway, I just sort of thought, “What if I’m the reincarnation of Jesus Christ?” (“AND”) — which was sort of unfortunate now when I look back at it. At one point, I did feel like the Entity left (X) my body. I was going through this period where I was telling people who they were the reincarnation of. (“I”) At one point, this Force left me and I felt — (X “YOU KNOW”) I just thought, (“WE[LL]”) “I’m totally helpless if this Force were to come back. I mean I could kill someone or something terrible could happen and I would not be in control.”
J: Yeah.
Q: So my — basically, my friends were very concerned for me. And I thought that Mighael was channeling through people’s subconscious minds. And, like, my mom said, “Finish the book in two weeks.” So I was trying to finish the book in two weeks. So at one point I told my brother after this(X) — I felt the Spirit leave me. I said, “I want to die.” I didn’t really mean it. I just felt I was just —
C: Right.
Q: — very tired and I didn’t know what to make of it all and — so, anyway, they talked me into going away for the weekend to a retreat, which I thought was going to be like a spa somewhere in Palm Springs. And in turned out to be a (“MM”) mental clinic.
?: (laughs) (“NO”)
Q: So — and there things really got of hand. I mean the Mighael Force was basically channeling through the other mental patients there. The nurses were hallucinating. I think they filmed it too but I haven’t been able to get a tape.
C: That’s pretty wild.
Q: It was really. (“I ME”) This one lady who was — (“LIKE”) she could not move and she could not speak but all of a sudden she would turn to me and start talking about the onion crops on another planet. I mean it was just totally bizarre. I mean — and then I would be watching TV — (X “AND”) the morning highway reporter would all of a sudden gesture like the dissolves in the movie “Wayne’s World.” And I just — it was just totally, totally bizarre.
C: Oh I bet.
Q: Plus they were medicating me even though — (“I HAD” “SI[GN]”) when I signed myself in, I’d said no medication but they went ahead. And they were scared to death of me. Especially since other people were hallucinating. I mean I had not told anyone about my experiences and other ‘inmates’ were talking about seeing a child whose head had been decapitated. (X) I didn’t even know this at the time. (“MY”) My friend Fiona told me this later. She said (“THAT THE”) the night nurse had told her that this was going on. (X) I mean I do remember (X “YEAH”) strange things. I remember one of the nurses went to our group and said, “Oh we have somebody famous here today: James Garner.” And, of course, this person looked nothing at all like James Garner. So I just felt, “Well there’s something terribly, terribly wrong.” And I remember at one point (“THE[Y WE]RE THE[Y WE]RE”) playing a song for sing-along and it was a Michael Jackson song. And it was just the music but all of a sudden you hear could Michael Jackson. So I just felt that, (X) “Well this is really — what is going on here?” So —
C: Right.
Q: I mean if they do have the video tapes, I would like to see them even though it would be terribly embarrassing because — I mean people were giving me information. (“LIKE THIS”) Like this one Oriental girl was going in and out of lucidity and saying things like, “Well you’re Jesus and that man over there is God.” And, of course, I thought that the ‘man over there’ was probably a CIA agent because of the way he was acting. (“AND I”) Because I knew that they were — you know, they were filming me. And I did have a ‘men in black’ experience. (“SO”) Anyway, I didn’t know what — I was only there for a few days and I basically went out and I started therapy with Judith Orloff, who is a well-known psychic therapist. And — so that was very interesting. When she said, “Michael, prove to me, you know, you’re here.” I said, “Well that earthquake we had.” And she said, “Oh well that earthquake happened before I asked.” And I said, “I know.” (X) So, anyway — and I try to document these things in the book. When I did start working on the book after, of course, having researched the Bell Witch case when there was various — you know, time — obviously time and space meant nothing to this Force.
C: Right.
Q: I decided I would take a break and watch TV. (X) So I turned on — it was MTV and it was that documentary series “The Real World.” And as soon as I turned on the TV, the London youths were basically talking about their telephone system going out. And then my TV went off. So I quickly realized that something was going on with television. My TV would come on and off and —
C: Were any of the people that were around you at the time — the nurses, whatever — were they aware of a strange phenomena?
Q: Um —
C: Did they — or did they seem like they were aware?
Q: Well at the time — (“I” “I MEAN”) it was — well what they did, (“IS”) they changed the people around me. Every day they would bring in different people.
C: Right.
Q: So they obviously were trying — (“TO THINK”) they probably thought I was doing it somehow to the other people. I remember playing, like, some game — (“OF”) some game where you — some board game, where if you win — if you get into the middle, you win. (“N”) And basically the other patients were not playing correctly and I somehow won. And, you know, just all these strange things were going on. And I remember at one point, (“THEY”) I was in the front lobby and they were trying to see, I guess, if I was schizophrenic or (X) something. So I heard them say, “Mark, why are you here?”
J: Oh my goodness.
Q: So and I — (X “YOU KNOW”) it made me almost laugh because (“YOU KNOW”) it was just so absurd.
C: Right.
Q: So I remember picking up the magazines and finding something strange about those and just holding them up — oh I think it was “The Grateful Dead,” I think, was on the cover. (“SO I” “M ME”) There was all this synchronicity that was sort of working on my behalf. And then, for example, like one time the TV came on one early morning and there was (one of ) the movie (series) “Topper ” (X) was on and they were talking about some mental institution and there were oran(ges) — like there was this bag of oranges and, you know, being a cinephile I can remember all the oranges in various movies and the meaning of the oranges as a leitmotif. (“WELL WHAT”)
C: What’s real interesting is that a lot of the people in mental hospitals — you know, there’ve been some different discussions on that. I’m sure (“OH YEAH”) this is not going to be scientific but —
Q: Oh no, I’ve read cases in magazines where I realized —
C: Right.
Q: — a lot of these people with — who go ‘psycho’ — it’s because they start realizing that there is —
C: They are psychic (X) or they have some type of ability to perceive beyond normal . . .
Q: Yeah or just — I think even sometimes it’s just an inkling that something somehow is communicating to them through other people’s subconscious minds and they almost become paranoid because ‘What is this strange — um (or “UM” “YY”) what is going on here?’ It’s like —
J: Yeah. That they’re like a vessel (X). . .
Q: Yeah. So I —
C: Yeah.
Q: Yeah. (or “YEAH”) So I think it’s basically — well it makes you think of the “conscious universe” and it rally takes on meaning when you read my book because you really can see what the “conscious universe” means and you do really see a personality there. I like to sort of say well we’re all — (“LIKE”) “God is the ultimate split personality and we’re all just different aspects of that Personality.” And since it’s a very loving Force, we do have evidence of reincarnation. (X “FOR”) In my case, for example, when I was doing my research — this was after my friend Marie all of a sudden heard “Mark” — we had talked about whether or not I should have a pseudonym and she heard “MARK RUSSELL BELL.” And so she called me and I thought it had a nice ring to it. So um (or “SO UM”) I was researching — I was (“LOOK”) — I got out Zechariah Sitchin’s book and I was sort of still researching Jesus Christ and I (X) found this mentioning (X) of Bel-Marduk (X) — basically (X) found that this Bel-Marduk was this precursor “of the New Testament tale of the death, entombment, and resurrection of Jesus. Sentenced to exile, Ra/Marduk became Amen-Ra, the unseen god. . . . scholars seriously debated at the turn of this century whether his story was a prototype of the story of Christ.” So (or “SO” “A”) little while after that, I was shopping at an antique store and I found this — I guess it was an Italian facsimile of an old Egyptian piece and it basically was of me with a (X) pharaoh-type cap on my head, holding some Egyptian (X) paraphernalia. So it’s sort of — it was confirmation that I had been this Egyptian priest named Bel-Marduk. And then so that reminded me of the Fortean Times cover and the scarab beetle in Oklahoma. (“AND THEN I”) You know, when I was doing these — transcribing the spirit messages, I was reading James Van Praagh’s book Talking To Heaven.
J: I just spoke to him last week.
Q: Because, you know, he’d worked at Paramount in contracts development (I meant administration). I don’t think he was there when I was there or if he was — my first film was the movie “The Untouchables” where I was working as a freelancer. And I know he was working in contracts development but he basically (X) said, “Usually I don’t hear in complete sentences as I can in normal conversation with human beings. When a spirit says, ‘Hello, how are you today,’ I may hear ‘lo, are yo day.'” And that’s exactly what was happening with a lot of these spirit messages — is I would just hear bits of speech. For example, one of the early ones was when I’m talking about mind-reading, (“AND”) I heard “IT’S FU.” Just “IT’S” then “F — U.” I put in “IT’S FUN” in my transcript because I didn’t think — (“WHAT EL” “LIKE”) didn’t know what else it could be. Unless it was profanity and I didn’t think it was that. (“I” “BUT UM”) So — and then in my second book, (“UM”) which I call New Testament at the website — which is a continuation. I just went ahead and started phonetically doing the spirit messages. And I think probably it shows that I have improved as a (X) transcriber. (“SO”)
C: Maybe you were an old scribe in another life.
Q: Well see, then I became aware of that whole Ra-Ta thing with Edgar Cayce. I actually had found the (X) parts all about Ra-Ta in a transcript of the original Edgar Cayce sessions over at the Bodhi Tree in Los Angeles. And that same night — I mean I was getting the message that this was very important to me. I mean the lights went off in my apartment building that night and I was reading it via flashlight. Because, again, in the Zecharia Sitchin books there was this parallel between Ra and Bel-Marduk. And I did realize that this, in fact — I mean that I was basically Ra-Ta. Because Edgar Cayce, of course, had said Ra-Ta would return to the world in 1998. And, of course, he himself had thought that he was Ra-Ta but what I think happened (X) there is that, that was his — what he — he thought, “Well the reason why I’m talking about Ra-Ta is because this was me.” But if you really look at it, he made a mistake (X) and he wasn’t the actual Ra-Ta. But, of course, Ra-Ta could be an honorary designation, meaning ‘Sun-Earth’ so there could be many different (X) people with that honorary designation. (X) But he did say that Ra-Ta would return to the world in 1998 and, of course, my website was discovered by a lot of people during that time.
C: Do you want to go ahead and, for people that have just tuned in, do you want to go ahead and give out your website again?
Q: Yes, it’s testament.org and, basically, the entire book is there: Testament and the follow-up book New Testament where I have all kinds of different interviews. Just to give you an idea, there’s —
C: Email also?
Q: What did you say?
C: Do you have Email also?
Q: Yeah, you can click on my Email address there. And I have my therapy sessions with my psychic psychiatrist. I have my insurance agent discussion because, of course, when I came back from Oklahoma, Blue Cross wouldn’t pay (for the mental clinic visit). I mean they really crucified me with that check, let me tell you. I mean I never ended up paying it but it ruined my credit. My hypnother(apy) — I did start seeing a hypnotherapist after Judith. (“WHO”) I have my hypnotherapy sessions there. Some of my interviews — for example, I started interviewing Hugh Langtry at an antique store because I was buying all these very interesting antiques. (X) I felt that Mighael basically was leading me to these wonderful antiques to sort of prove His existence. So I started interviewing Hugh Langtry about antiques and I ended up talking about “The Outer Limits” because (“HE HAD” “END”) he had been playing all the aliens in the TV show and I didn’t even realize that (“WH”) when I started interviewing him. So there are lots of little surprises like that along the way. And there is a fair amount of Hollywood interviews. I remember going to the Elizabeth Leustig Memorial interview — memorial service and doing interviews there. And there’s some talk about the movie “12 Monkeys” which my friend Marie took me to see.
C: That is just — that’s a phenomenal —
J: Yes.
C: — movie. It really is.
Q: Well you might have a different (X) interpretation of it after reading my entire book. (X) I also interviewed Hank Hanegraaff, the Bible Answer Man, when I was trying to share with him some of my experience. And there are sort of ‘whistle-blowing’ transcripts of conversations with Coca-Cola as well as (X) Blue Cross. I also have a channeling session in the book (“THAT”) Barbara Rapp did — (“I”) met her at one of the Whole Life Expos (X) and, basically, from just one quick message that she had transcribed, I felt that she was legitimate so I went ahead and included that. (“CHANNELING” “I STILL WAY”) At this point, I really wonder about the channelers in general because there are some that I believe are authentic but what disturbs me is that so much of the material seems to be bad information and people just take it at face value because it’s coming from some kind of unearthly source.
C: Well, you know, if you think of it this way, I mean it’s like, you know, if you’re going to call a spirit in basically without getting a little reference —
Q: Right. (or “RIGHT”)
C: You know, if you’re going to call that spirit in, that’s like throwing open all your windows and doors in your house and screaming, “Well come on in.” You don’t know what you’re going to get.
J: That’s very true.
C: And so truly that’s why I believe there’s a lot of, you know, there may be a lot of good positive information but bad information comes out that way too.
Q: I know. I remember like — there was this one (X) character named Ra I guess and he was saying that there’s (X) — whenever I hear like “There’s no such thing as right or wrong or good and evil,” it really just — (“THAT JUST”) — I see red. I’m sorry. I mean this is obviously not a god of love.
C: Right. (“BUT”)
Q: In terms of (“THE”) the channeling here — (“I”) sometimes I don’t really know what to make of it. Some of it seems to be true but, then again, we do bring an element of our own personality when we (X) channel and we — (“THINK THAT” “IF”) I mean it depends on the (X) channeler. I mean we might not think — we might not be a clear channel because we might bring our own prejudices. So I really don’t know what to make of it all. (“SHE”) Some of — the bit about energy sources I find to be compelling but then other days I wonder. So, anyway, I’m just concerned about the New Age gobbledygook. Even though I’ve had all these experiences, I’m very careful about what I believe and I don’t take anything at face value.
C: You can’t take it at face value anymore.
J: I think, Colleen, we’re coming down to our next break . . .
C: Yeah, we sure are. We’re coming right up to it.
J: Well I have to — (“NO”) I have to say good night . . . Mark, it was a pleasure to —
Q: Yes, nice meeting you and — (“BYE”)
C: . . . talk to you, Janet as always.
Q: . . . The House of Russell in the book. You’ll have to look at that lineage chart.
J: I’ll have to look at that . . .
C: Okay. Well we’re going to go ahead and come up on our break. You’re listening to “Night Search” and we’ll be back in a few minutes . . . Eddie Middleton. You’re listening to us on KRVL 103.1 FM Tucson, Arizona. We’ll be right back. (pause)
( . . . )
C: Okay, love you, Janet.
J: I love you too.
C: We’ll talk soon.
J: I will . . . Okay, Aage, I’ll talk to you Wednesday night.
A: Okay.
J: And, Mark, very interesting.
Q: I’ll send you a copy of the book. (X)
J: Sounds great. Okay . . . I’ll talk to you . . . Eddie I said hi. . . .
A: . . . Eddie’s on the other line.
C: Okay.
?: I’ll hang up.
A: I need somebody to —
J: . . . Good night.
A: Which line are you on?
J: (gives number)
C: (gives number)
J: Okay, good night.
A: All right . . .
Q: Good night.
J: Bye-bye.
C: (O)kay.
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