INTERVIEW — TAPE #60, SIDE #1
Q: Mark Russell Bell
T: Terrance Boykin, friend
S: Shirley J. Nicholson, director of the Krotona School
K: Kay Herron, acquaintance at the Philosophical Research Society
Q: Terrance, what is this man doing?
T: . . .That’s the car I want. I know.
Q: Parking there? (“IT’S LIKE”) In the van.
T: Some people park both ways. I’ve seen people do that on the street.
Q: But he’s parking in front of a fire hydrant.
T: I know. This is the car that I want.
Q: He looks like a CIA agent, doesn’t he?
T: The car that I want.
Q: What is it? What kind of car is it?
T: BMW. The 525. (“WELL”)
Q: Well, you live in Hollywood. Everyone wants a BMW in Hollywood.
T: Which one is it because I kept — I hit it twice. That’s why I’m looking with you (“at”) what it is.
Q: Oh no, Terrance, no. I was taping you. Oh no.
T: I’m sorry.
Q: That means you incriminated yourself. There’s no damage.
T: (small laugh)
Q: This is what I do, Terrance. I just tape normal conversations and things for my book.
T: I love that car. It doesn’t say what it is.
Q: Why do people like BMWs?
T: Oh, there just beautiful and they’re very sturdy. And they have very high resale value. You can have them for — you know. There are very few cars you can have for ten or twelve years and still be able to resell it and (“WELL LOOK AT”) (be) so marketable.
Q: I’ve had my car for a long time and it’s fine.
T: It’s sturdy. It’s sporty. It is a superiorly crafted car.
Q: Do you know what Mazda means?
T: People are — don’t spend a lot of money on cheap things — things that aren’t really genuinely worth it.
Q: Well — my antiques, for example. But, anyway, I brought this Philosophical Research Society catalog for you to look through. The founder, Manley Hall, of this place, wrote a lot of books on (reading from catalog) “Reincarnation, Karma & Life After Death”; “Philosophy & the Philosophers”; “Orientalia.” Anyway — (“YOU’LL HAVE TO LO”) “Egypt” — you’ll have to look at it.
Q: And what else was I going to ask you? (“OH WELL”) We don’t have a lot of time so maybe I’ll just get something quick. And then I can just leave and you can stay here if you want. Unless you want to go to try this new experience.
T: I’m going.
(TRANSCRIBER’S NOTE: THIS WAS TRANSCRIBED ON MARCH 12, 1997. I AM NOT TRANSCRIBING BACKGROUND CONVERSATION AND SPIRIT MESSAGES MAY HAVE BEEN OVERLOOKED — MESSAGES AND UNATTRIBUTED SOUNDS INDICATED ARE THE MOST OBVIOUS ONES FROM A TRANSCRIBING PERSPECTIVE.)
Q: So Terrance and I are here (in the restaurant). He’s decided to go to the Philosophical Research Society and experience that. I hope it’s a good weekend because every weekend is totally something different. When we were talking, Terrance, what you had to say was so right on about Hollywood and middle America. Do you remember what you had to say?
T: Oh ho ho —
Q: Because my book is sort of becoming a tell-all book about Hollywood even though I try to name as few names as possible. I certainly don’t want to out anyone. (“O” “BUT YOU”) What you were saying about how middle America relates to celebrities (“YEAH”) was especially acute. (“WHERE TO” “O” “AN AA” “I JUS” “PAPER”)
T: Basically (“YEAH”) that (“MIL KK”) middle America basically (“PROFIT” or “PROPHET”) relates to celebrities in the same way that, you know, England related to (“COMING”) the royal family. The stars are the royal family.
Q: You put that in the past tense? (“STAR TREK”)
T: The same — yeah. In the same way that they relate (“TO” “O”) to the royal family.
Q: You said “related.” (“NO” “WELL”)
T: In the same way they relate and the same way that we relate. (“WE’RE”) We’re the rebel colony who supposedly (“NO”) wanted to come to America to cultivate a new world and we cultivated the same thing except these people get millions and millions and millions and millions of dollars.
Q: There’s still (“NO”) a class system (“WE”) here, isn’t there?
T: It is a huge class system here. That’s all it is here is a class system.
Q: It’s almost a caste system.
T: (small laugh) Almost. (“PLANE” or “PLAIN” “WE[LL]”) Well, you’ve got a class system — (“I”)
W: The drinks are going to take a little bit longer than the food. (“HI” “CHOOSE” “WE”) Be back, okay?
Q: Okay, fine.
T: Thank you.
Q: Can we have some water maybe? Water? (“I KNOW”)
T: A class system. And then you’ve got all of your ethnic issues (“WI[TH]”) with so many different cultures here competing. (“IT’S LIKE YOU KNOW”) It’s totally, you know — it’s frenzied here in this country.
Q: As a black person, how do you feel right now? What is the status of the races in America?
T: The saddest?
Q: No. Where are we right now?
T: Where are we? (“I MEAN THERE’S”)
Q: Of course, there was “Can we all get along?”
T: I think we’re in a transition.
Q: (to waitress) Thank you.
W: You’re welcome.
T: I think we’re in one of our many transitions. I’m still pensive and a little afraid that history in some ways is still going to repeat itself in terms of the same people again (“I”) ten, twenty years from now who you see being disenfranchised again.
Q: I know.
T: The blacks. The Hispanics. (“I HEA”)
Q: I heard a song recently — (“BUT”) “Revolution.” (“BUT I THINK”)
T: But I think that what we need to be facing are the key issues. The root — (“OF THE”) the causes. And that is our system. (“I MEAN”) We do have a capitalist system that works. There is something really wrong in how we think; really wrong in how we — the language that we use and how we’ve set this whole thing up. And it’s always going to end up with certain people being left out of it. (“BUT”) But the thing is, individually, (“ONE”) person by person, (“THEY”) we’ve got to (“I”) help people revolutionize their thinking and really get their priorities to what’s really important because as long as people are looking at the celebrities — (“AND”) and they think that the material things are the most important things: the VCRs, the TVs and the car. As long as we’re groveling for that and putting all of our importance on that, we’re going to always have the problem.
Q: And what about television and films? How do they play into this?
T: I hope that they can continue to play a better role in educating people and bringing a sense of value. You can’t say that the mediums are all good or all bad. There are some great things. There are some wonderful things and then there are some atrocities you see. You go, “How could people put money behind that?’ (“AND”) And then again how can the public pay to see it? As long as the public pays to see certain things, watch certain things on TV and spend their money at theatres, they’re going to keep making it. The relationship goes both ways. You can’t just say, “Oh — Hollywood” or “Oh — (“I”) these people.” (“IT’S LIKE”) When those people turn up with millions (“SURE”) and millions and millions of dollars for their part, yeah, they’re going to keep making it.
Q: So let me ask you real quick (“NOW”) and also I wish you were producing because you are one of those people who really cares —
W: Here’s the hot chocolate.
Q: — oh thank you — about what the message is of the film. I remember you wanted to produced my screenplay “Horns.”
T: Oh yeah.
Q: So that’s how perceptive and bright you were. (“UM-HUH”) I mean you and Jim Gorman both. Of course, he’s made millions of dollars since then and you’re still struggling in the low ranks of the Paramount hierarchy. (“UM-HUH”) But I’ve always definitely felt that you should be a film producer or in politics. (“NO”) Or in some kind of religious —
T: I would be saying, “Aren’t they the same thing?” (small laugh)
Q: Exactly. Or some kind of ministry. And now you can say, “Oh, aren’t they the same?” because yes, they are. (“FUNNY”)
T: As a Buddhist, I do work with young people (“MY”) every day. That is what I’ve dedicated my life to. (“I”) So (“AA”) I mean the Suh Doh . . . is a great value-creating organization which allows people not only to excel in Buddhism but it’s based on common sense. It’s based on culture and education. It’s based on helping people realize their own potential.
Q: What is your favorite religious book? If there is one.
T: There are several. (“UM” “UM”) Um probably The New Hima Revolution written by Daisaku Ikeda. Um there are several books that he’s written. He wrote a book called The New Common Sense, which I like.
Q: But as a Buddhist isn’t there (“LIKE”) one profound book?
T: In that sense, (“WOOL”) yeah, it would be the major writings of Nichiren Daishonian.
Q: And now is this a (“WHOSE WHOSE”) metaphoric book?
T: No. Nichiren Daishonian is considered the buddha of the latter day of the law in the sense that kyanuni Buddha — Gautama Buddha was the teacher and the buddha over two thousand years ago. His direct reincarnation — the manifestation of him years later and the teacher that we’re supposed to be following now is Nichiren Daishonian. (“HOW”) They’re one —
T: — and the same. That is the Buddhist philosophy that I practice — that (“OHH”) kyanuni laid the foundation but his teachings are not — (“THEY”) they have —
Q: He’s not one of these little kids, is he?
Q: You know how they reincarnate and they have to track down these little kids?
T: No no no no no no no no.
Q: Like recently in Washington. Remember?
T: No. Nichiren Daishonian was born around seven hundred years ago. (“AM I”) Basically, (“I”) he incorporates kyanuni’s teachings and pays reverence to, incorporates and uses all those teachings. (“BUT”) Those teachings were a foundation. They weren’t the end — you know what I mean? They weren’t all of the —
Q: Terrance, I think that (“YOU’RE”) you’re going to have a new favorite religious book when my book comes out.
T: Oh good.
Q: Because it’s even got people’s names that you know about.
Q: Like it mentions — even though some of them in a very disparaging way or very scary way.
W: Here’s the mocha for you.
T: Thank you.
Q: Thank you. (“DRY”) So for example (“JUST”) just to show you how bizarre this whole thing is — one possible interpretation is of one of the spirit messages is that various people — everyone — (“LIKE WHO”) when I was laid off it was right before my stock option became valid because you have to be there for a year after that.
T: Right. Um-huh.
Q: So, apparently, everyone involved in that decision to cheat me out of my money is damned.
T: Is what?
Q: Is damned. (“KIDDING”)
T: No kidding.
Q: You mean you think so too? (“IN” “INNA”) You innately feel the same way?
T: Yep. (“PERFECT”) I innately feel the same way because (“OW”) I have not yet —
Q: But I don’t think Cheryl and Allison had anything to do with that. I think that they were just sort of carrying out (“WELL”) the orders of the (“OF THE”) higher-ups. (“I WON’T”)
T: I won’t go as far as to say “damned” but I just feel that — (“I”)
Q: Well, in a metaphorical —
T: In a metaphorical sense it’s like if they participate in anything like that knowingly —
T: You know — (“THAT”) that maliciousness and that will re-manifest in their lives. That’s the way the universe works.
Q: Well, Cheryl has her own religion which is very much like that. Did she ever talk to you about that? (“CALL”) Boonesadong. Anyway —
T: Cheryl Boone Isaacs-dom?
T: (small laugh) No.
Q: Boonesadong. Anyway, ask her about it some time.
T: Sounds like common sense to me.
Q: It is.
T: (small laugh)
Q: They all are. Love is the only religion, etc. What was I going to ask you — oh, so before you eat — and I’ll let you eat the rest of the time. Our interview will be over. (“IS”) What is the greatest gossip or Hollywood story you’ve heard in a while? You don’t have to name names. (“THAT”) Sexual? (“I MEAN”) You must have heard something somewhere at all those Christmas parties you went to. (“LET’S SEE”) It can be about executives. It can be about Sherry Lansing. It can be about anyone but you don’t have to name their names.
T: Wow, that’s tough. Let’s see.
Q: It can be an old story even.
T: Let me think. (“I” “MY”)
Q: My book is sort of a tell-all book about Hollywood. (“WHO MADE A SONG”)
T: Tell it all. (“PLAIN” “IDEA” “WHY”)
Q: Don Simpson (“O”) just passed away. Do you know any good Don Simpson stories? I mean he’s dead. (“WHEN YOU’RE GOING TO GO” “ONCE”)
T: I remember delivering his mail. (“BO[B]” “YEARS AGO”)
T: I used to deliver their mail. And they used to have all —
Q: Isn’t it weird that all these films we worked on —
T: All the people we’re connected to are like —
Q: O. J.
Q: Like O. J. Simpson was in “The Naked Gun.”
Q: River Phoenix was in (“CLOSE”) “The Thing Called Love.”
T: And “Indiana Jones and The Last Crusade.”
Q: Right. My God.
T: All the people we’ve been connected to — (“NO”)
Q: Isn’t that weird? (“AND” “AND CLINT”) Okay, I know what I was going to ask you. Of course there was “The Crow.” (“AGO” “ONE”) And (“NO”) “The Saint.” And — do you remember what other films did people die on? Wasn’t one of the Tom Clancy films — didn’t somebody die during (“OF ONE”) the making of one of those films? A helicopter accident —
T: I hope nothing happens to Harrison Ford. (“LIAR”)
Q: Why did you say that? (“NET”)
T: I hope that nothing happens to Harrison Ford because he’s my favorite actor.
Q: Oh. (“WE WORK”) Because of all the other people.
T: We worked with him.
Q: Well, I’ve spoken to him — nicest, nicest man.
T: A real wonderful person. And I think he’ll be protected — people like that who are genuinely wonderful.
Q: You know he’s married to Melissa Mathison (“HA[TE]”) who wrote the screenplay for “E.T.” (“SWEATER”) and for “The Indian in the (“CUPBOARD”) Cupboard.” (“NICE”) I was going to say closet. (small laugh)
T: Oh. Alright, let me think of my Hollywood gossip. Well — (pause) gosh. (“BRENDA”) Hard to do.
Q: What about the executives? (“IT CAN BE”) It can be like who’s getting a promotion. (“I” “TWI[N]” “WELL I’LL BE WITH YOU”)
T: I mean of something a little worthy. (“SUCH THE”) Paramount is such the buttoned down NBA kingdom these days. (“NO”) It’s hard to extract anything really juicy.
Q: Do you know any VPs of development there?
T: Not anymore. (“GGG” “FLOWERS”)
Q: Who did you used to know?
T: Everyone. They all left and went to Columbia and other places.
Q: I remember the — (“O”) you were able to smuggle me out that wonderful story analyst’s report —
Q: — of “Wild Woman.” That was so funny. I don’t think I kept any of them.
T: Was it “Wild Woman” or “Horns”?
Q: “Wild Woman” because they said it was — I don’t know. No, I think it — (“ONE”) it was “Horns”?
T: We were work(ing) —
Q: No, you just told me about (the report for) “Wild Woman.” You didn’t show me (the report for) “Wild Woman.” (“WIL[D]”) You just told me about that one because you said you thought it was too nasty for me to see. Now I remember. And that’s when I found out that Jim Gorman had bad-mouthed his own property, saying, “It needs to be this and it needs to be that.” He might have been right but I think that’s a stupid approach to take (“YOU KNOW”) but he’s sort of getting his right now because “Cutthroat Island” came out and it’s the biggest turkey ever made so ha ha ha for you, Jim. You had your chance with several of my scripts and you dropped the ball. I’m even glad you spent time in Mexico in that jail. I’m sure you had a good time.
Q: Oh, I think he ran a traffic light in — I don’t know. Maybe he killed somebody. (“ONE”) You never hear about the real stories that go on in the lives of these so-called ‘glamorous’ and ‘talented’ filmmakers. (“THEY’RE ALL”) They’re all living their own private hell. Like Don Simpson.
T: “Private hell.” I love it. Well, I think that —
Q: Like my life used to be until I discovered that God is in my life. And He redeemed me so this is how I’m paying Him back by writing a tell-all book and outing everyone I can.
T: (small laugh)
Q: In a nice way. I’m basically saying that a lot of people are gay. (“NO” “WELL”)
T: A lot of people in Hollywood are gay. We know that.
T: I’m trying to think of something really good.
T: We can pause it while I —
( . . . )
Q: Fire away.
T: Well, there was supposed to be a rumor that the president of production at — the head of one of the studios is being wooed to go over to CAA as their —
Q: (to W) We’re ready for the check.
T: You know since —
Q: She’s over-worked.
T: — everyone’s left. Ron Meyer left and all the top brass left. (“RIGHT” “WHAT” “JAMES” “NO”) One heads — (“HE HAS”) he’s like president of production — to go over to CAA to beef that up. I just heard that on Friday.
Q: Which studio?
T: Columbia. Barry Josephson.
Q: Ohh. So who would be promoted if he were to leave?
T: I don’t know. You’ve got Mark Canton there.
Q: Oh my God. You don’t know how funny what you just said was. Josephson?
T: Oh? Why?
Q: (The word) son. (“I”)
T: It has —
Q: I’m the son symbol.
T: Ohhhh. The son symbol?
Q: Son. (It’s) Like all these people in my life are named — (“LIKE” “SON”) have sons in their name.
T: Boykin? Ooooo. (“MY” “BOY”)
T: Boy and kin. (small laugh)
Q: What does Boykin mean? Does that have a meaning?
T: Oink boink boink — no. (laughs)
Q: What did you just say?
T: Oinky boinky boy. Or boy and king. Young king.
Q: Oh my God. (“SEE THE THAT DD”) That’s it.
T: Drop the G.
Q: Exactly. You know, probably — okay, let’s play my famous game. One of my famous games in my book is to always ask somebody who they’re the reincarnation of — and for that person to say the first thing that comes into their mind. So, Terrance, who are you the reincarnation of?
T: Probably an old African or Indian king. (“I”) I think so. Some royal figure.
Q: Oh definitely. Zulu.
T: In India or Africa.
Q: No names? (“A” “IT WOULD HAVE TO BE”)
T: I don’t know any names. (“SO”)
Q: No, but it might be close to your own name because usually they are close in some way.
T: Ashani Kingon. It just came to my mind.
Q: Oh my God.
T: I don’t know who that is.
Q: That’s it.
T: (You) never know. Could be.
Q: Exactly. It came in through you intuition like in the movie “12 Monkeys.” Remember how all those people were always telling Bruce Willis’s character “Go to Florida”? He didn’t go to Florida. So if anyone tells me to “Go to Florida,” I’m going to Florida. Actually, one of the voices on my microcassettes said, “MARDUK WILL LIVE IN OKLAHOMA NEXT YEAR.” (“SO”)
T: I want to hear some of these. (“I’LL PLAY”)
Q: If you want, whenever you want, I’ll just play — just come by whenever you want and I’ll play them for you because everyone who listens to them always tries to explain them away. ‘Oh that’s your voice.’ (“OH”) ‘Your brother said that.’ They always just find some excuse.
T: Oklahoma? Why?
Q: Well, that’s where the family was that I interviewed. It’s a long story. I’m going to turn off (“HAPPY”) my tape recorder now. (“FUN”)
( . . . )
Q: I just told Terrance that Mighael the Angel is gay. So, Mighael, what — I mean Terrance what is your response to that?
T: I’m not surprised. But I thought it was cute that you said that — (“HHH”)
T: — all angels were gay.
Q: I didn’t say that all angels were gay. I just said that my Angel is gay.
T: Oh. I heard you say —
Q: Even though it’s definitely a possibility. (“UH-HUH” “DEFINITELY IS”) Did you hear the word all?
T: I heard “all.”
Q: Uh-oh. I didn’t say “all.” You heard Mighael. That was Mighael.
T: (small laugh) You said “all.”
Q: I didn’t say “all.”
T: You did. You said, “Did you know all angels were gay?”
Q: No, I didn’t say all angels were gay. I said, “Did you know Mighael, my angel, is gay?” (“GAY”) But you heard ‘all.’
T: I heard you say that “All angels are gay.”
Q: Okay, well whatever.
T: (small laugh)
Q: We’ll agree to disagree. Okay.
T: Okay. (“SOME”)
( . . . )
Q: Terrance, I realized what I said. I said, “. . . angels are gay?” Not “all angels” but “angels.”
T: ” . . . angels are gay.” (“RIGHT”)
Q: Some of them.
( . . . )
T: It is. If you say “angels are gay” all angels are gay.
Q: Well, whatever you say, Terrance.
T: (small laugh)
( . . . )
Q: Real quick — my name is Mark Russell Bell. I’m writing a New Age Testament that encompasses all areas of New Age thought and Hollywood and the film (industry) so I was very surprised by what you had to say about movies. I believe in that, myself.
Q: Now your poem would be perfect to include in my book. Could I include that?
S: Sure. Delighted.
Q: In fact, I’m taping —
S: I haven’t really been published except in a little newsletter (“WELL”) — Krotona.
Q: I’ve interviewed a lot of diverse people such as Robert Altman and Daryl Hannah and my friends so, in fact, if you want to read it real quick I’ll have your voice reading it as part of the audio version.
S: Let’s see. It was in the part about maya, wasn’t it?
S: So if I can find maya —
Q: I’m going to recommend your lecture as well since they tape the lectures here at the PRS.
Q: I’ve been interviewing each speaker each weekend.
Q: Oh great.
S: You might — If you want to mention my book Ancient Wisdom, Modern Insight.
Q: Definitely I will.
S: Obadiah has my copy of that. Do you want me to read?
S: (she reads her poem as follows)
Shirley J. Nicholson
S: You want that?
Q: Can I have a copy of it? (she hands it to me) Great. And what you said about the woman who claimed she was the reincarnation of Blavatsky — I think you meant that as a joke but it may not be because I’ve been finding in my research a lot of people who are famous reincarnations of other people —
S: Say they are — I’m skeptical, myself. (“WELL”)
Q: Yeah, well, as part of a game, real quick, if you were (“YEAH”) to say someone who you would be the reincarnation of — as a joke (even) — who would you say? Just as a joke, who would you be the reincarnation of?
Q: My goodness! Well, you’ll have to read my book and find out that this may be true. (“YEAH”)
S: I know. (“P”) There are other people (“RIGHT”) here.
Q: Okay. (“NICE”) Very nice meeting you. I love your poem.
S: Nice meeting you.
( . . . )
Q: Terrance, guess who she told me she’s the reincarnation of.
T: Who’s that?
Q: The famous philosopher — like ‘the Pythagorean theory.’
T: Oh yeah. Okay.
Q: So what did you think of the lecture? Be honest.
T: Honestly, I thought she had some interesting points but basically they were the Doctrine‘s points of what she read in her book which are universal truths at this point in time. I think this (“LIKE”) from what I could gather of the Institute — and maybe this is what it’s supposed to be — lots of glimpses and pieces of helpful hints and useful philosophy but there’s no real whole, actionable — any substances or any teachings that people can take to become actionable and permanent in the person’s life — to better their life or make them come — there’s no access or no process to enter a spiritual experience. (“SO”) I mean you’ve got a million pebbles and there are quadrillions of pebbles and you just toss and throw them around and you juggle them. What are you supposed to be getting? I mean — (“IT’S LIKE”)
Q: Terrance, (“YEAH”) you should maybe write a book yourself.
T: (laughs) (“WWW” “ANY”) What are you supposed to be getting? (“IS LIKE YOU”) Yeah, you can get a glimpse here and a glimpse there but you could if you read all the books in the library.
Q: Well, plus, I mean all these books — these holy books from all these different civilizations and societies are all a little bit dated. (“WELL THEY’RE”)
T: They’re all very interesting in a scholastic way but the thing is that spirituality and spiritual well-being is more than just theoretical. You need something, which — that brings me to the next step. I want to invite you to a lecture of mine so that you can incorporate something —
Q: Okay. Great.
T: — you need something that’s going to give you something to vibrate your body — to give you a lifeforce. That’s just, to me —
Q: Trust me, that’s one thing I already have too much of. (“MORE” “BUT THIS IS”)
T: But I think that (“SPIRITUAL”) spiritual well-being and the action of spirituality — it’s action. It’s a physical, real experience. And you need — like working out — like anything else you need —
Q: Well, you know I work out a lot.
T: Well, you need a dependable way to tap into it and as you, like, —
Q: Trust me —
T: — but as you develop, Mark, then all of these things can be put into perspective and you can use it.
Q: Also, in that lecture, all that talk about all those gods and everything — it’s a lot like the Entity Mighael who is like a —
T: I mean it is very interesting food for thought. I looked at this woman and I could see — I was trying to really (do) something that a friend taught me to do in North Carolina which is something I hadn’t done since I was like a kid but I did really try to look at her and see — and I did see she has a wonderful energy around her. She does. (“SO I”) I usually look at that —
Q: What energy do you see in me?
T: Well, see I — it’s hard because I know you and I’m very close to you. When I’m listening to a person speak or I’m trying to judge their sincerity —
Q: Look at Manley Hall.
(TRANSCRIBER’S NOTE: WE ARE STANDING IN FRONT OF HIS PAINTING IN THE AUDITORIUM FOYER.)
Q: What energy do you see from his picture?
T: Nothing. I see a deviousness. He looks like he wants to take me home. (laughs) (“LET’S”)
Q: Speaking of taking you home, which is my job, let’s go look at the bookstore and see what there is, real quick. Just for a moment.
( . . . )
T: I just think that everybody’s looking for a quick fix. Nobody’s looking for a way to live — a day by day process and what’s the best way to live your life. And everyone’s looking at the Deepak Chopras — like (as if) he has invented anything that didn’t (already) exist. He has not. He’s a good speaker and he pulls common sense together and expounds some universal truths but I just think that —
Q: Did you read The Celestine Prophecy?
T: Yes. I enjoyed it. It was great fiction. It took some wonderful common sense universal concepts and blended it into a really interesting, tight fictional experience. It was fun. It said something that’s very relevant and important about religious authoritarianism. If you want to look at how the churches in certain organized religions hide and don’t allow the people to really blossom. They don’t nourish them to reach their full potential spiritually because they’re so busy controlling and collecting the money. They want to be in control of whatever — if there’s something to be gained in terms of spiritual enlightenment or something that’s going to be of usefulness to mankind, they want to be in that business. They’ll decide who gets it and when. And I like The Celestine Prophecy for that because it went up against the clergy in the sense of a book. It went up against the establishment to try to bring some of these truths and to give access to the people, which is a great metaphor for the Catholic Church. It’s a great metaphor for religion today.
Q: That reminds me of an ad I saw in Edge magazine. It had a picture of the virgin and child and it said something to the effect ‘there are some things standing between you and God.’
T: Yeah — established (religion). Exactly.
Q: What section do you like?
T: Let’s see.
T: Where’s Buddhism? I haven’t been over there. Let’s see.
( . . . )
Q: Here’s one of my favorite sections. Kavanaugh. Have you ever heard of James Kavanaugh?
Q: No, I knew you wouldn’t have heard of him.
T: Well, see, I think that’s the reason that you have bookstores like we’re standing in — places like the Bodhi Tree and this Research Society — is because people are tired of being told what to do. People are tired of having someone being the middle man between them and their spirituality so you have something like this that’s wide open, non-denominational, where if you’re curious you can come and find whatever you need —
Q: The key word is non-denominational.
T: — to afford —
Q: Where is Buddhism? I can’t find Buddhism.
( . . . )
T: . . . American Indian.
Q: You like the American Indian section?
T: Yes. A lot of American Indian philosophy is really wonderful.
Q: They’re going to have an Indian speaker here in a few weeks so I’ll tell you when that happens.
T: I mean I think there are some beautiful, very interesting concepts in American Indian —
Q: Look at this: Black Elk Speaks.
T: There’s a class of — I’ve been looking for the name of this particular — I won’t say it’s a tribe but it’s a teaching or way of living in the American Indian culture that, at some point in time — I don’t know when, but they even have a name for it. It’s a member of a tribe but in the American Indian culture if you have a gay member of the tribe you were considered to be extremely fortunate because you would appoint that gay person to become like the clergy or, just say, the priest or the counselor because they had the fortune and they were looked upon as blessed because they had feminine and masculine perceptions or emotions so that person became holy — that person was the advisor of the tribe. They didn’t marry. They were made like, I guess, your chiefs or your counsels or your advisors were the homosexual members of the tribe and it was considered in American Indian culture that your family was blessed to have one of those people in your tribe. And they have a name. And I’ve been looking for and trying to research it to find out more about it but it is documented fact. (“DOC”)
Q: Well, I mean this goes way back in terms of homosexuality in the Bible and what-have-you. (“WHIP YOU”) I mean some people think Jesus was gay. (“I”) As if it makes a difference. (“BUT”) And some people think Adam and Eve were gay.
T: Oooh. And they weren’t supposed to touch each other.
Q: Right. Exactly.
T: It was supposed to be a gay world.
Q: Now you know why —
T: Same sex world. Now you know why. (“BUT”)
Q: My big question is now — and I think I’m ready to ask it: do you think God, the Creator, is gay — even though you would think He would have both sexes? But they say that he walked in the garden of Eden so He does have a physical body. And it must be a man because they always call Him God the Father. (“NO”)
T: Well, see, I think that the entire Bible is a tool and an allegory and I do not believe it to be true.
Q: Of course.
T: It is not true. Men wrote this.
Q: One of the themes of my book.
T: Probably they expounded —
Q: I think Jesus edited it.
T: — upon (“YEAH”) these myths and stories. I think Jesus, of course, was a real person — probably a person with many, many gifts and abilities to teach out of desire to save mankind. Now how the Bible came to be I don’t know. There was a Newsweek article just recently that talked about ‘Bible — fact or fiction?’ It was within the last four — six weeks.
Q: I know.
T: I wanted to get that and read it but —
Q: I have it at home.
T: I would love to read it. (“BECAUSE I THINK”)
Q: I think it was Time.
T: Or Time. Yeah.
Q: With Moses on the cover.
T: I would love to read it because there’s so much tampering with that document.
Q: It was lightweight.
T: So many things.
Q: It was a puff piece.
T: So much tampering with such writing.
Q: Well, Terrance, I have the Ark of the Covenant. I mean you don’t believe me —
T: I don’t believe that’s the Ark of the Covenant.
Q: Well, of course not. These things are incomprehensible.
T: You’re right. It is.
Q: You saw my (temple) doorway.
T: The doorway is precious.
Q: You saw my Grail.
T: But where is that from?
Q: Oh, I forgot to show you the Declaration of Independence. I have the original Declaration of Independence too.
T: We’ll have to see that next time. But the Grail — it could be from anywhere. (“BUT”)
Q: But the odds are if somebody just happens to have a Grail, an Ark of the Covenant and a Declaration of Independence —
T: But the chest is not (the) Ark of the Covenant.
T: No. Where did you — you don’t even know where you got it.
Q: Yes, I do. I got it at an antique store.
T: But you don’t know any history. It doesn’t have any markings.
Q: No, but in the book of Exodus it gives the exact dimensions of it.
T: It’s just like a chest — like a traveling — an old, ancient traveling chest.
Q: Come on. Is it a coincidence that I’m living with a gay Angel named Mighael?
T: I don’t know. (“I’M SAY”)
Q: I’m saying that’s what my book is about.
T: Okay. (“OKAY”)
Q: But, see, you’re (“BUT”) my — (“BUT YOU” “I’M SEE”)
T: But you are — your heightened sense of awareness — don’t — you have to stay grounded at the same time.
Q: I’m grounded.
T: I just want to see you’re grounded. I care for you. I want to see you grounded.
Q: Well, let’s go look — what else — we were looking for the Buddhism section, right?
( . . . )
Q: What do you think of the books on Buddhism that they have?
T: It’s very small. I think the Buddhism section should be huge because, come on, Buddhism and American Indian culture and Hinduism are like the beginning of everything we’re looking at. How could they only have like a (small) section on Hinduism and Buddhism? Hmmm.
Q: I bought this The Language of the Gods: Sanskrit Keys to India’s Wisdom by Judith M. Tyberg after another speaker spoke here.
T: Hmmm. Hm hm hm.
Q: And you also saw my medallion of myself as the god (Amun-)Ra.
T: (singsong) Raaaaaa.
Q: Right? That looked like me?
T: (singsong) Raaaaaaa.
Q: Right? You think it looked like me.
T: We’re all gods, Mark.
Q: Well, I know that. That’s one of the themes of my book.
T: We’re all little gods. (“BUT SOME OF US”)
Q: Some of us are just — no, wai(t) — I don’t know what to say.
T: Some of us are deluded. But we’re all gods.
Q: (small forced laugh)
( . . . )
Q: You forgot one other little thing, Terrance. Remember my screenplay “Wild Woman”?
T: “Wild Woman” — yeah. Julia?
Q: Yeah. Well, the wild man of the woods —
T: Oh yeah, you told me about that.
Q: — is one of the major precursors or one of the greatest heraldic symbols in the history of mankind. The wild man or wild woman —
T: What was the wild man’s name?
Q: No — just ‘the wild man of the woods.’
T: Oh really?
T: Heraldic. (“SYMBOLS”)
Q: For the Second Coming.
T: Something’s happening to you.
Q: I know. I’m going to be put into an institution.
T: (small laugh)
T: I’ll come visit you.
Q: Exact(ly) — (“NO”) that’s — I wish. (“I”)
T: You could stay with me.
Q: So I don’t see any books here about the Holy Grail.
Q: Wait — what’s this? The Chalice and the Blade — no, that’s not it. I don’t see any books — (“WHAT BOOK”) it said bookshelf three but I don’t see any books here on the Holy Grail. Do you? I don’t see any. Oh well.
( . . . )
Q: I was just tell —
T: What do you think your chest is made of underneath all that painting? You think it’s tin?
Q: No no no — that’s gold that’s oxidated after many, many centuries.
T: You think so? (‘SCI”)
Q: Definitely. It’s an alloy and beneath it is the wood.
T: Oh. And then they put gold over the wood?
Q: Right. But it’s all described in the book of Exodus.
T: But what’s that lining? It could have been added in later?
Q: They added it in later. Right. They made it into like (“NO”) one of those steamer trunks of the (a later) period. That’s what they made it into.
T: But what period are we talking about? (“GUESS”) Indiana Jones — when he was digging up the Ark — (“WHAT”) what period was that? (“HATE” “WHEN”) The movie? What period did the movie take place in? (“OH I DON’T KNOW”) Germany. (“WELL WELL”) The Germans — (“A”) we’re looking at German intervention so we’re talking about the ’30s or ’40s? (“YOU KNOW THE”) The Nazi troops and everything.
Q: I don’t know.
T: There were jeeps and planes.
Q: This has nothing to do with that.
T: I know. I’m talking about the period (“YEAH”) the film was in.
Q: No, but you have to remember the movie “12 Monkeys.”
T: What about it?
Q: No, I’m just telling you (“THEY”) that it’s like — (“HOW PEOPLE”) remember how people would tell him through their subconscious mind they would be leading him.
T: Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.
Q: That’s what happens to me in antique stores.
T: No, they were plugged in. (“FEEDING”) Oh, that’s what happens. They go, “Get this. Get that.” But that’s what happens to me when I shop.
T: Exactly. (“THAT’S WHY”)
Q: (That’s) what I’m saying.
T: But it’s the same as — (“THAT’S WHY”) but that’s what happens to me, of course. I don’t buy things. I don’t accumulate material things. When I go somewhere something’s always going, (“THIS IS”) “This belongs to you. This is connected to you. Get it.”
Q: Do you remember seeing the movie “Clueless”?
Q: Do you remember the time I had the glitch on my computer file for “Clueless”? Did I tell you about that?
Q: Oh. (“YOU’LL HAVE”) You’ll have to read my book about that one. I’m just saying she went shopping a lot.
T: Maybe it’s just you listen to your intuition, which is a rational, (“CO[MMON]) very common voice that everyone has.
T: Whenever I’m doing something I listen to myself say, “No. No. Yes. (“NO”) Look over there, Terrance. Look. That is meant for you. (“YOU”) You’ve always had this. Maybe it was from a past lifetime but this object is (“YOU”) connected to you.”
Q: What are you pointing at?
T: Nothing. And then —
Q: Unseen forces that affect our lives.
T: — it’s an example. But then I pick it up and it’s like, “Wow. This feels right — feels like it’s mine." (It) could have been from a past lifetime — could be because I like it. But then I see it and go, “Yeah. I am connected to it.” And I buy it. It’s just intuition.
Q: That’s what I’m telling you.
T: But you have that consciousness. Everyone does.
Q: Mine has a Name though. Mighael.
T: I haven’t given mine a name. Mine is Terrance.
Q: No. He gave Himself a name. What I’m just saying, though — but I can’t even remember what I was going to say. (“I WAS”)
T: What are we looking for? (“WE’RE LOOKING TO SEE”)
Q: Just I’m showing you — to see if anything said, ‘buy me buy me buy me.’
Q: But like if we were seeing any Holy Grail stuff. Manley Hall wrote all this stuff. Can you believe it? I mean this guy would write and write.
T: I love that. (“AND WRITE AND WRITE”) I love that. I’d love to buy that.
T: That vase.
Q: Well, you can ask about it. (“CUTE”) I can’t remember what I was going to ask you. There are all kinds of books here, like America’s Origin and Destiny, Pythagoras — who I just met the reincarnation of — oh, that’s what I was going to ask you. Remember how you came up with that name when I was asking you about reincarnation? That was through your intuition.
T: Yeah. It was just like — I know the first part was.
Q: Well, after what I told you about “12 Monkeys” —
Q: — and what I’m telling you now, aren’t you a little bit freaked about hearing that name come into your intuition? (“NO”)
Q: No, of course not. Because you’re very spiritual and you know that God is love.
T: And I know anything is possible.
Q: Exactly. But some people would be freaked out by that.
T: No. I get things into my mind all the time. It’s like — (“I JUST”)
Q: You don’t hear voices. (“MY”)
T: No, I don’t hear them but they come — I mean no, not in the same sense that you describe.
Q: No, but I hear them on my microcassettes.
T: Well, I can’t wait to hear (them) sometime.
Q: Well, you have an open invitation.
T: We’re going to hear — (raps twice)
(TRANSCRIBER’S NOTE: I THEN SAW A MAN WITH A SUNDANCE FILM FESTIVAL T-SHIRT.)
Q: My God, Terrance, “Sundance.”
T: (singsong) Sundance.
Q: As in S — O — N?
T: That’s right. Boykindance. No. (small laugh)
( . . . )
Q: So what did you think of the lecture and what’s your name?
K: Kay Herron.
Q: I’m just interested to hear — my book looks at names and what they mean. I also ask people who they’re the reincarnation of and people usually tell me the first name that comes into their mind.
K: I’m not one of those. Since I don’t know.
Q: You’re a young soul?
K: No no no. (“NO” “YOU’RE A” “I”) I —
Q: You just weren’t somebody famous?
K: Not that I know of. I certainly wasn’t Cleopatra. There are far too many of those around.
Q: I’ve met Cleopatra. She’s (“THE PART”) working at an antique store in the valley.
K: (small laugh) Now what was your question?
Q: Oh, I don’t know. So what did you think of the seminar today?
K: I liked it. (“NO”) She gave a very good overall view of theosophy.
Q: Wasn’t Blavatsky also — (“AND”) she also did something — I know that she had been found out for doing some kind of hoax or something that they didn’t go into today. Do you remember what that was?
[2021 UPDATE: I WENT ON TO RESEARCH THE LIFE OF HELENA PETROVNA BLAVATSKY AND LEARNED THAT THE ACCUSATIONS OF A HOAX WERE COMPLETELY INACCURATE — THE USUAL TYPE OF PERSPECTIVE EXPRESSING A MENTALITY ORIENTED TO DENIALISM IN RELATION TO PHENOMENAL OCCURRENCES.]
K: She was very, very psychic and could produce phenomena. But, you know, that isn’t available twenty-four hours a day so when she sort of lost some of that she did produce a few shenanigans. By the way, we have a portrait of Blavatsky up in the lecture room painted by — I think it was an Austrian court artist and it’s a beautiful portrait. (“YEAH”) (There’s) a lot of symbolism in the portrait. (“YEAH”)
Q: And what about Manley Hall? My friend was joking that he looked almost malevolent in this painting of him over here.
K: His eyes are hypnotic in that painting. (“I’M”)